Luger Failure to feed

[fwm]

Finally able to get out and shoot (attempt to shoot) my Luger. It will not chamber rounds. I first thought it may be a problem with my handloads so I went back to the range with factory ammo and same problem. Rounds come up out of the mag beautifully and feed into chamber no problem but the toggle will not close completely. To close it would have to travel an 1/8 to a 1/4 farther. If I gently push down on the toggle still nothing. I'm wondering of the extractor is the problem. I can't make it move and it won't snap over the rim. Wondering how easily the extractor should move or is it usually really stiff?

[spacecoast]

There's a pin that holds the extractor in the breech block. The pin can be carefully drifted out and then you can remove the extractor and clean thoroughly. There's often a lot of dirt in and around it. If the extractor spring will come out, remove it as well and clean thoroughly.

[fwm]

OK I will try that first. Thanks

[mrerick]

It's possible that dirt is jammed in the spring well of the extractor. Try carefully removing it, check the extractor spring for integrity and clean the well.

I know that you've probably checked this, but this is a 9mm Luger, right? If it's a .30 Luger pistol, you would see a similar round insertion problem when a 9mm round hit the chamber's front bevel.

Marc

[spacecoast]

One more thing... reinstalling the pin on the extractor is a little tricky - after relocating the spring, the extractor kind of slides in from the front of the breech block, then you have to squeeze down hard on it to line everything up for the pin to go back in. Don't force anything.

[noylj]

First, does the toggle close on an empty case? If not, then the extractor could be the problem.
Otherwise, does the toggle close on a factory round?
If it does, then do the following:
First, determine where the problem is. This is always the first step.
Take a round (always nice to make at least one inert dummy round before you start loading to verify feeding and chambering) and completely cover the bullet and case with Magic Marker
Remove barrel (cannon or whatever the P-08 folks call it once it is off the frame and toggle removed) from gun and drop the coated round in the barrel. Twist the round to-and-from.
Remove round and inspect for scratches in the marking.

Scratches on the bullet: COL is too long

Scratches on the case mouth: need more crimp to remove case mouth flare (and that is ALL crimping is to do)

Scratches just below the case mouth: too much crimp and you are bulging/buckling the case.

Scratches on case near the base of the bullet: you are seating the bullet crooked. You may need more case mouth flare. You may need to expand the case (if you are only case mouth flaring). You may be starting the bullets crooked or the bullet is tipping on its way into the seating die. You may have poor bullet-to-seating stem fit and it is pushing the bullet crooked. Your seating stem may not be aligned correctly and is forcing the bullet crooked.

Scratches above the extractor groove: cases have bulges not being sized out. Get a Bulge Buster and the appropriate Lee FCD and run the cases through the FCD (without, obviously, the crimp parts still installed). This is about the only failure-to-feed I have had with my P-08s. One round must have a bulge that got pushed down and formed a raised ridge about half-way around the case just above the extractor groove (just like in Lee's Bulge Buster ads). I've been since been running all my 9x19 and 9x21 cases through a 9mm MAK Lee FCD and Bulge Buster.

[Lugerdoc]

If the above extractor problems appear not to be the cause, I'd recommend checking the rear end of the toggle assy, ie the S shaped connecting link. If that part is damaged or inproperly installed, it can prevent the toggle from fully closing. In the last 50 years, I've run into a couple of cases where a bubba has installed a M1900 link in a P08 and the toggle will not fully close, either with or without a cartridge. TH

[fwm]

The toggle will not close on factory rounds or my reloads. My first thought was that my reloads were the problem as this is the first reloading I've done for a pistol, although I'm quite experienced with reloading bottle necked rifle rounds. Both reloads and factory rounds drop into the chamber freely and fall out again when the barrel is tipped up. In watching some animations of the P08 action it looks to me like the extractor should spring over the rim before the round is fully chambered and I get the impression the extractor is the loaded chamber indicator. Am I correct? If so this makes me think it is most likely the extractor. Hopefully I'll have time this evening to take the pistol apart and determine the problem. Fingers crossed.

[rhuff]

You are correct that the extractor is the loaded chamber indicator. The way that the Luger function on loading, like the P-38 and others, it feeds the loaded cartridge into the chamber and then the extractor claw will snap over the cartridge rim and into the extractor groove. The extractor spring is a stout little fella, but you should be able to elevate it manually with the breach block/toggle train locked to the rear, or out in your hand.

Are you trying to slowly allow the toggle train to close on a dummy/loaded round in the chamber?? That will not get the job done with a Luger. You need to lock the toggle train to the rear, inset a dummy round/empty sized 9mm brass into the chamber and then release the toggle train and let it slingshot forward and allow the extractor claw onto the case rim. If you have tried it this way with failure, then the next step is to remove the extractor and spring and check things out. If your Luger has and aftermarket extractor that was not fitted correctly to the extractor groove, then that may well be your problem. The extractor must move freely in the groove.

[fwm]

This is really turning into a struggle. With the pistol disassembled, I can't get the extractor out of the breachblock. I've had it soaking in penetrating oil for days now and it still won't budge. I'm thinking about using some brake cleaner to remove all oil and putting it in the freezer to see if that works. I had a bit of a time even getting the pin out. I watched a couple of videos and it looked like the extractor popped right out when the pin was removed. Lucky me I guess. Anyone have any ideas? May have to break down and take it to a smith.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by fwm

This is really turning into a struggle. With the pistol disassembled, I can't get the extractor out of the breachblock. I've had it soaking in penetrating oil for days now and it still won't budge. I'm thinking about using some brake cleaner to remove all oil and putting it in the freezer to see if that works. I had a bit of a time even getting the pin out. I watched a couple of videos and it looked like the extractor popped right out when the pin was removed. Lucky me I guess. Anyone have any ideas? May have to break down and take it to a smith.

After a good soak in penetrant, often a touch of heat will release a part, along with physical agitation applied to the area. A 350 degree oven will not affect the breech blocks temper, and you can cool the assembly back down by immersing in penetrant. This is often enough to get things moving. Something else to try is to place the assembly on a block of wood and tap around on the extractor with a short segment of a small wooden dowel driven by a small hammer. Once you get the joint to bleed rust-colored solvent when it is flushed onto a papre towel or white cloth, you on the road to success, just keep doing all three things and be patient.

p.s. a pic of the results would be fun to see...

[DavidJayUden]

So if you raise the toggle up and back until it locks, you can not reach into the top and with your finger raise the front tip of the extractor? If you definitely have the extractor pivot pin out and it still will not come out or raise, then careful heat and penetrant may be in order.
Also, did the pin, once removed, show signs of rust or corrosion?
On the P08 the rear of the extractor does drop down below the surface of the bolt carrier when the front raises, so I suppose that in desperation you could use a small brass drift and tap down on the rear to break any rust of corrosion.
Or you could put it in a box and send it to LugerDoc.
dju

[ithacaartist]

I'm also thinking that with the pin already removed, you would be able to tap up gently on the business end of the extractor at the front of the block--just enough to get it moving, then work on expanding the range of motion until it frees up entirely. Liberal lubrication, judicious application of shock with non-marring tools, flushing frequently (joint, not self)...

[rhuff]

Again, if someone purchased an aftermarket extractor and "forced" it in without fitting it properly, they can be a real bear to remove. I have been to that well. If it is a correctly fitted extractor that is frozen via corrosion/rust, it should be easier to remove with some of the treatments discussed above. Go slow and be persistent.

[mrerick]

If it's the correct extractor, there might be varnish / dirt and congealed lube holding it in. Try an ultrasonic bath with some mineral spirits. Do it outdoors.

It's possible that the little spring has broken and pieces jammed between the extractor and the breech block surface too.

Marc

[Lugerdoc]

fwm, As you can see from the above, there can be several possible causes of a stuck extractor. With the retaining pin removed, if you can get it to raise up enough to get the rear of it slightly above the breech block, you should be able to push it up the rest of the way with a tool to drive it forward and out. This would usually indicate a replaced extractor that was not properly installed in the first place. TH

[fwm]

There was no corrosion on the pin, so its either debris or an aftermarket extractor forced into place. All numbers match on the pistol except the barrel which was replaced to appease the nanny state (Canada) I live in, but it is still possible the extractor has been replaced.

[fwm]

Just noticed browsing through some pictures that the extractor should be marked with the serial # and mine is not. It is also in the white and it looks like it should be blued??

[DavidJayUden]

Definitely a replacement part which helps explain its lack of proper function. Any luck tapping down on the rear to raise the front?
Wonder why someone would install it so tightly?
dju

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Wonder why someone would install it so tightly?
dju

Perhaps "bubba" didn't know exactly what was the correct installation procedure. I have installed 2-3 aftermarket extractors over the years(maybe more), and NONE of them were drop in parts in my Lugers.