Range Report: Lipstick Bullets

Karl · 09-05-2016, 08:42 AM

This is an evaluation of 9mm polymer coated bullets based on a comparison between:
Acme polymer coated 115 grain, round nosed bullets, and Rainier Ballistics plated 115 grain, round nosed bullets. The charge was 7.0 grains of Blue Dot powder. Every effort was made to provide accurate and equal loads. The Acme bullet has a more rounded profile, and as a result is about .010 shorter than the Rainier Ballistics bullet. Consequently, I seated the Acme bullets .010 deeper, for and OAL of 1.150 instead of 1.160 to provide the same filled-case volume. Both bullets were given the same medium crimp.

Test gun was a Luger with a new 6" barrel. I fired 20 rounds of each bullet at a 4" bull at 50 ft. I used a two-hand hold with the wrist supported on a sandbag. Note that my eyesight is not all that good.

Velocity: Acme coated bullets average velocity was 1239 FPS with and extreme spread of 145 FPS; Rainier Ballistics plated bullets average velocity was 1163 with an extreme spread of 99 FPS.

Accuracy: Acme coated bullets had an extreme group size of 5 1/4" with 11 of 20 within the 4" bull. Rainier Ballistics plated bullets had and extreme group size of 4 1/8" with 17 of 20 within the 4" bull.

Other notes: I fired with 5 rounds per magazine. Using the coated bullets the holdopen only functioned once (out of 4 magazines); using the plated bullets the holdopen functioned every time. Using the coated bullets there were two jambs (perhaps a result of the shorter OAL); using the plated bullets there were no jambs. The coated bullets are also a pain to load. The coating flakes off easily requiring substantial case expansion to seat the bullet without shearing off the coating.

Conclusion: Polymer coated bullets may prove superior in the future but not yet, at least for this brand.
KFS

DonVoigt · 09-05-2016, 09:04 AM

Thanks for your post! I know that was a lot of effort and time.

Maybe next time you would include a 115 gr FMJ bullet for accuracy comparison?
More work I know, but would surely be interesting.

Or perhaps you already know the performance of a similar FMJ load?

Thanks again.

Karl · 09-05-2016, 03:04 PM

Don,

I don't have any 115 grain FMJ bullets. I have been using the 115 grain plated bullets for all of my 9mm vintage handguns. I understand that my report is limited in scope but I wanted to share what I had. It would also be useful to test with faster burning powders.
KFS

rhuff · 09-05-2016, 05:15 PM

Karl,

Thank you for your time, effort, and report. This info gives me second thoughts on the coated bullets for my Lugers. I was a bit surprised to see that you load Blue Dot powder for 9mm, as that is not a powder normally mentioned on loading forums for 9mm. Obviously, you have a track record with it, and are comfortable loading with it. I have had very good results with BD in 357Sig brass, but load at or slightly above max loadings.

Do you have any idea why the toggle lock did not function with the coated bullets?? Perhaps a reduced recoil impulse? Quite a difference in velocities between the two loads.

sheepherder · 09-05-2016, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhuff

I was a bit surprised to see that you load Blue Dot powder for 9mm, as that is not a powder normally mentioned on loading forums for 9mm.

My Speer's Reloading Manuals list Blue Dot, as well as Red Dot and Green Dot, for 100, 115, and 125gr 9mm bullets. Hornady lists Blue Dot for 147gr bullets.

I'm surprised a 9mm case will hold 7.0grs of anything...But Speer lists 10 grs of Blue Dot for the 100gr hollow point as well...

Zorba · 09-05-2016, 07:30 PM

I shot 200+ rds of "Bayou Bullets" a few years back. My Luger really liked them, but there was exactly zero science applied!

rhuff · 09-05-2016, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

My Speer's Reloading Manuals list Blue Dot, as well as Red Dot and Green Dot, for 100, 115, and 125gr 9mm bullets. Hornady lists Blue Dot for 147gr bullets.

I'm surprised a 9mm case will hold 7.0grs of anything...But Speer lists 10 grs of Blue Dot for the 100gr hollow point as well...

Some of my loading manuals do list BD for 9mm, but a good many handloaders consider Blue Dot powder as a magnum powder, and that it needs to be loaded at or near max loads for it's best performance(no unburned powder). I know of a couple of folks that load BD powder in 45ACP(low chamber pressure round), but that is uncommon......doesn't mean it won't work, just uncommon.

Karl · 09-05-2016, 07:50 PM

Luger colleagues,

Blue Dot is listed among only four powders for 9mm, 115 gr. jacketed bullets in the Lyman reloading manual and it is at the top of the list in the Speer manual. The 7.0 grain load fills the case to the point of bullet seating. In my experience this is the lightest load with a 115 gr. bullet that will cycle a Luger and the same bullet / powder combo also works in my C-96, 1902 Colt, and 1912 Steyr Hahn. It does require a good crimp for complete burning.

I am hardly a ballistics expert but my theory about the wider variation in velocity and holdopen problems is that despite the crimp, the reduced friction of the coated bullet causes it to start out of the case earlier, resulting in irregular burning of the powder. There is also the problem of the polymer coating not sticking to the bullet very well. Next time at the range I should recover bullets shot into some soft material for examination.

Other brands of bullets may work better and a different powder may work better. I have 50 unloaded polymer coated bullets left. I will send them to anyone who wishes to continue this experiment with other powders.

KFS

Tango3 · 09-08-2016, 09:08 AM

I'm totally new to Lugers and the forum. I'm a 1911 guy who's recently purchased an Interarms Mauser Parabellum which is expected to arrive at my FFL tomorrow. So I'm researching everything in preparation for shooting the Parabellum next week. I'm not a reloader. The thread interests me since I've shot the new American Eagle coated ammo in .45ACP and 9mm through my 1911s with great success. The 9mm lipsticks are 115gr. Your thoughts on the use of this with my Parabellum?

Thanks,
Eric

mrerick · 09-08-2016, 10:30 AM

I have also reloaded polymer (powder) coated lead bullets and don't like them for either accuracy or consistency. In my case, i loaded .45acp and was shooting from a M1911a1 pistol. In any case, i found them unsatisfactory and won't be loading them again.

Karl · 09-08-2016, 10:44 AM

Eric,

I can't comment on other brands of polymer coated bullets. The brand I tested was Acme and as noted I found them to be unsatisfactory despite the increased velocity. I don't think that the bullets used in American Eagle ammo are available for reloading. However, I would be interested in your comparison for accuracy between the American Eagle ammo and another brand using FMJ bullets.
KFS

sheepherder · 09-08-2016, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhuff

...a good many handloaders consider Blue Dot powder as a magnum powder...

As do I, for my .357/.44 magnum wildcat cartridges, out of a S&W M27 w/8 3/8" bbl. But I was surprised to see it listed for 9mm...

Eugen · 09-08-2016, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Pic of my .357/.44 mag wildcat. Has nothing to do with this thread...I just like showing it off...

Sheepherder, the topic of this thread is way over my head. But, I must say, that is one nice revolver you have there. Thanks for sharing that beauty.

rhuff · 09-08-2016, 03:31 PM

[QUOTE=sheepherder;293305) But I was surprised to see it listed for 9mm -[/QUOTE]

I have some old Lyman handloading manuals that list 4227 Powder for 38 special/357 Mag, among other calibers. Now that is a slow rifle powder for sure!!! Will it work....absolutely it will, but is it one of the better powders for handgun calibers, no way.

If one is stuck with no handgun/shotgun powder available to purchase, many, many of the powders we consider as unsuitable for handgun calibers will get the job done.....just not ideally!!

Many handloaders have gotten spoiled(including me) by having so many really great powders available to us these days, when in the past, that just wasn't the case.

Karl is having good success with his 9mm handloads using Blue dot powder, and it is hard to argue with success!! I might just try it one day, just because!!

DonVoigt · 09-08-2016, 05:03 PM

I found one Blue Dot load for .30 luger when I was searching for loads that had be used/recommended by members of this and the other luger board.
7.5gr with 1292 mv.

I have not used it, so just listing for info.

rhuff · 09-09-2016, 03:54 PM

Yes, I also have that loading for 30 Luger utilizing Blue Dot powder. It was offered up by our own Hugh C. I have never tried it, but I have it saved as I believe that one can never have too much load data, especially concerning 30 Luger brass.

Tango3 · 09-14-2016, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl

Eric,

I can't comment on other brands of polymer coated bullets. The brand I tested was Acme and as noted I found them to be unsatisfactory despite the increased velocity. I don't think that the bullets used in American Eagle ammo are available for reloading. However, I would be interested in your comparison for accuracy between the American Eagle ammo and another brand using FMJ bullets.
KFS

Karl,

I plan on a range trip in the next few days. I'll try the American Eagle coated ammo along with some WWB cartridges. I'll be sure to report back.

Eric

Sieger · 09-15-2016, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl

This is an evaluation of 9mm polymer coated bullets based on a comparison between:
Acme polymer coated 115 grain, round nosed bullets, and Rainier Ballistics plated 115 grain, round nosed bullets. The charge was 7.0 grains of Blue Dot powder. Every effort was made to provide accurate and equal loads. The Acme bullet has a more rounded profile, and as a result is about .010 shorter than the Rainier Ballistics bullet. Consequently, I seated the Acme bullets .010 deeper, for and OAL of 1.150 instead of 1.160 to provide the same filled-case volume. Both bullets were given the same medium crimp.

Test gun was a Luger with a new 6" barrel. I fired 20 rounds of each bullet at a 4" bull at 50 ft. I used a two-hand hold with the wrist supported on a sandbag. Note that my eyesight is not all that good.

Velocity: Acme coated bullets average velocity was 1239 FPS with and extreme spread of 145 FPS; Rainier Ballistics plated bullets average velocity was 1163 with an extreme spread of 99 FPS.

Accuracy: Acme coated bullets had an extreme group size of 5 1/4" with 11 of 20 within the 4" bull. Rainier Ballistics plated bullets had and extreme group size of 4 1/8" with 17 of 20 within the 4" bull.

Other notes: I fired with 5 rounds per magazine. Using the coated bullets the holdopen only functioned once (out of 4 magazines); using the plated bullets the holdopen functioned every time. Using the coated bullets there were two jambs (perhaps a result of the shorter OAL); using the plated bullets there were no jambs. The coated bullets are also a pain to load. The coating flakes off easily requiring substantial case expansion to seat the bullet without shearing off the coating.

Conclusion: Polymer coated bullets may prove superior in the future but not yet, at least for this brand.
KFS

Hi,

I'm working on a rush job now at work, but would like to follow-up with you in the near future.

From what you are telling me, your loads are in the +P range for a Luger, as original military pistol rounds were 123 grains at 1076FPS (four inch barrel). Hot loads are not good for your Luger's health, nor are they accurate or particularly functional.

Blue Dot isn't a particularly accurate powder in a Luger either.

More Later

Sieger

JD · 09-19-2016, 05:02 PM

I've always had good luck with BD in the 9mm. In fact, it is my favorite powder for the 9mm, and at least in my 9mm's (going on 18 9mm's so far....), it produces exceptional accuracy and reliability. Several of my lugers will produce 1" 5 shot groups at 25 yards with BD, and my Browning GP Comp will hit 3/4". I haven't found anything that would do better yet, but then there are a lot of new powders out there that I haven't tried.... Just my experience.....

rhuff · 09-20-2016, 03:31 PM

JD,

If you don't mind, I am curious/interested as to what loading data that you are using in the 9mm brass. If you would rather not post it, you can send it via PM. You obviously are having great success with your loads, and it is hard to argue with success!!

Karl,

Would you mind sharing your loading data also??

I am always more than willing to learn new things, especially concerning handloading....thanx

09-05-2016, 08:42 AM	#1
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Range Report: Lipstick Bullets This is an evaluation of 9mm polymer coated bullets based on a comparison between: Acme polymer coated 115 grain, round nosed bullets, and Rainier Ballistics plated 115 grain, round nosed bullets. The charge was 7.0 grains of Blue Dot powder. Every effort was made to provide accurate and equal loads. The Acme bullet has a more rounded profile, and as a result is about .010 shorter than the Rainier Ballistics bullet. Consequently, I seated the Acme bullets .010 deeper, for and OAL of 1.150 instead of 1.160 to provide the same filled-case volume. Both bullets were given the same medium crimp. Test gun was a Luger with a new 6" barrel. I fired 20 rounds of each bullet at a 4" bull at 50 ft. I used a two-hand hold with the wrist supported on a sandbag. Note that my eyesight is not all that good. Velocity: Acme coated bullets average velocity was 1239 FPS with and extreme spread of 145 FPS; Rainier Ballistics plated bullets average velocity was 1163 with an extreme spread of 99 FPS. Accuracy: Acme coated bullets had an extreme group size of 5 1/4" with 11 of 20 within the 4" bull. Rainier Ballistics plated bullets had and extreme group size of 4 1/8" with 17 of 20 within the 4" bull. Other notes: I fired with 5 rounds per magazine. Using the coated bullets the holdopen only functioned once (out of 4 magazines); using the plated bullets the holdopen functioned every time. Using the coated bullets there were two jambs (perhaps a result of the shorter OAL); using the plated bullets there were no jambs. The coated bullets are also a pain to load. The coating flakes off easily requiring substantial case expansion to seat the bullet without shearing off the coating. Conclusion: Polymer coated bullets may prove superior in the future but not yet, at least for this brand. KFS

09-05-2016, 09:04 AM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Thanks for your post! I know that was a lot of effort and time. Maybe next time you would include a 115 gr FMJ bullet for accuracy comparison? More work I know, but would surely be interesting. Or perhaps you already know the performance of a similar FMJ load? Thanks again. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

09-08-2016, 10:30 AM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I have also reloaded polymer (powder) coated lead bullets and don't like them for either accuracy or consistency. In my case, i loaded .45acp and was shooting from a M1911a1 pistol. In any case, i found them unsatisfactory and won't be loading them again. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-08-2016, 05:03 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	I found one Blue Dot load for .30 luger when I was searching for loads that had be used/recommended by members of this and the other luger board. 7.5gr with 1292 mv. I have not used it, so just listing for info. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

09-05-2016, 03:04 PM	#3
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Don, I don't have any 115 grain FMJ bullets. I have been using the 115 grain plated bullets for all of my 9mm vintage handguns. I understand that my report is limited in scope but I wanted to share what I had. It would also be useful to test with faster burning powders. KFS

09-05-2016, 05:15 PM	#4
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	Karl, Thank you for your time, effort, and report. This info gives me second thoughts on the coated bullets for my Lugers. I was a bit surprised to see that you load Blue Dot powder for 9mm, as that is not a powder normally mentioned on loading forums for 9mm. Obviously, you have a track record with it, and are comfortable loading with it. I have had very good results with BD in 357Sig brass, but load at or slightly above max loadings. Do you have any idea why the toggle lock did not function with the coated bullets?? Perhaps a reduced recoil impulse? Quite a difference in velocities between the two loads.

09-05-2016, 07:30 PM	#6
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 951 Thanks: 776 Thanked 526 Times in 289 Posts	I shot 200+ rds of "Bayou Bullets" a few years back. My Luger really liked them, but there was exactly zero science applied!

09-05-2016, 07:50 PM	#8
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Luger colleagues, Blue Dot is listed among only four powders for 9mm, 115 gr. jacketed bullets in the Lyman reloading manual and it is at the top of the list in the Speer manual. The 7.0 grain load fills the case to the point of bullet seating. In my experience this is the lightest load with a 115 gr. bullet that will cycle a Luger and the same bullet / powder combo also works in my C-96, 1902 Colt, and 1912 Steyr Hahn. It does require a good crimp for complete burning. I am hardly a ballistics expert but my theory about the wider variation in velocity and holdopen problems is that despite the crimp, the reduced friction of the coated bullet causes it to start out of the case earlier, resulting in irregular burning of the powder. There is also the problem of the polymer coating not sticking to the bullet very well. Next time at the range I should recover bullets shot into some soft material for examination. Other brands of bullets may work better and a different powder may work better. I have 50 unloaded polymer coated bullets left. I will send them to anyone who wishes to continue this experiment with other powders. KFS

09-08-2016, 09:08 AM	#9
Tango3 User Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Michigan (Native American for "too much winter") Posts: 51 Thanks: 90 Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts	I'm totally new to Lugers and the forum. I'm a 1911 guy who's recently purchased an Interarms Mauser Parabellum which is expected to arrive at my FFL tomorrow. So I'm researching everything in preparation for shooting the Parabellum next week. I'm not a reloader. The thread interests me since I've shot the new American Eagle coated ammo in .45ACP and 9mm through my 1911s with great success. The 9mm lipsticks are 115gr. Your thoughts on the use of this with my Parabellum? Thanks, Eric

09-08-2016, 10:44 AM	#11
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Eric, I can't comment on other brands of polymer coated bullets. The brand I tested was Acme and as noted I found them to be unsatisfactory despite the increased velocity. I don't think that the bullets used in American Eagle ammo are available for reloading. However, I would be interested in your comparison for accuracy between the American Eagle ammo and another brand using FMJ bullets. KFS

09-08-2016, 03:31 PM	#14
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	[QUOTE=sheepherder;293305) But I was surprised to see it listed for 9mm -[/QUOTE] I have some old Lyman handloading manuals that list 4227 Powder for 38 special/357 Mag, among other calibers. Now that is a slow rifle powder for sure!!! Will it work....absolutely it will, but is it one of the better powders for handgun calibers, no way. If one is stuck with no handgun/shotgun powder available to purchase, many, many of the powders we consider as unsuitable for handgun calibers will get the job done.....just not ideally!! Many handloaders have gotten spoiled(including me) by having so many really great powders available to us these days, when in the past, that just wasn't the case. Karl is having good success with his 9mm handloads using Blue dot powder, and it is hard to argue with success!! I might just try it one day, just because!!

09-09-2016, 03:54 PM	#16
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	Yes, I also have that loading for 30 Luger utilizing Blue Dot powder. It was offered up by our own Hugh C. I have never tried it, but I have it saved as I believe that one can never have too much load data, especially concerning 30 Luger brass.

09-19-2016, 05:02 PM	#19
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	I've always had good luck with BD in the 9mm. In fact, it is my favorite powder for the 9mm, and at least in my 9mm's (going on 18 9mm's so far....), it produces exceptional accuracy and reliability. Several of my lugers will produce 1" 5 shot groups at 25 yards with BD, and my Browning GP Comp will hit 3/4". I haven't found anything that would do better yet, but then there are a lot of new powders out there that I haven't tried.... Just my experience.....

09-20-2016, 03:31 PM	#20
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	JD, If you don't mind, I am curious/interested as to what loading data that you are using in the 9mm brass. If you would rather not post it, you can send it via PM. You obviously are having great success with your loads, and it is hard to argue with success!! Karl, Would you mind sharing your loading data also?? I am always more than willing to learn new things, especially concerning handloading....thanx