Unit mark? Boy.21 J.R.M.G.

An Old Shooter · 11-17-2016, 05:56 PM

A friend just acquired an interesting Luger with the cited marking. It appears to be East German with black grips with vertical grooves, a different but functional side plate, unmatched numbers and over stamps on the frame and elsewhere. It appears to be a commercial DWM said to be 1920s with import marks on the barrel. It was priced at $1000 which I thought a little high. Condition will make it a fair shooter. Sorry, no pictures.

Can anyone translate the unit markings for us please?

Thanks.

DonVoigt · 11-17-2016, 07:41 PM

Boy? really? or a script "B"?

21 J.R.M.G. would likely be Infantry Regiment 21 Machine Gun(company)

$1000 is a little high for only a "fair" shooter. Black grips with vertical grooves are Russian.

Pictures?

An Old Shooter · 11-17-2016, 07:59 PM

Thanks Don,

That would be Bay, with a Roman B mostly filled out. A closer look makes that an a in Bay, not Boy. Sorry.

The note says it included holster and extra mag for the $1000. Bore is strong with light pitting.

Ed

DonVoigt · 11-17-2016, 09:15 PM

Maybe "Bayerische" = Bavarian

Holster and extra mag may help, depends on if they are reproductions or original.

abukafura · 11-18-2016, 02:59 PM

Is there a date over the chamber? If so, it should be 1916 or earlier.
The unit mark is indeed a Bavarian mark for the Bavarian 21st Infantry Rgt, Machine Gun Company

An Old Shooter · 11-18-2016, 03:58 PM

No date over the chamber on what looks like a commercial top with no military poofs. An N on the left side is almost touched by 2144 which is also on the barrel. The frame has an etched out two digit number and l (el) with 2144 added underneath. Toggle seems commercial with etched 44 on top. Side plate with etched 44 is not typical German but works. I would guess the top and bottom did not start out together.

Thanks for the information. This is all very interesting and educational for those who love Lugers and their history.

George Anderson · 11-18-2016, 04:30 PM

Is there a stock lug?

DonVoigt · 11-18-2016, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Old Shooter

No date over the chamber on what looks like a commercial top with no military poofs. An N on the left side is almost touched by 2144 which is also on the barrel. The frame has an etched out two digit number and l (el) with 2144 added underneath. Toggle seems commercial with etched 44 on top. Side plate with etched 44 is not typical German but works. I would guess the top and bottom did not start out together.

Thanks for the information. This is all very interesting and educational for those who love Lugers and their history.

You would guess correctly; the luger assembled by the Russians or East Germans after WWII.

An Old Shooter · 11-18-2016, 08:37 PM

Hello George. I think there is a lug, but the pistol is in Arlington and I am in Mt. Jackson for opening day. I can check it on Wednesday. Thanks for your interest. I am enjoying the 20's .30 you passed on to me a few months ago.

Thanks again.

Ed S.

George Anderson · 11-18-2016, 09:28 PM

Ed, I live in Mt Jackson.

An Old Shooter · 11-23-2016, 05:11 PM

Yes George, I was in your home to purchase a pistol some months ago.

Anyway, the Luger here does have a stock lug. Is that significant?

Thanks for you interest.

Ed

DonVoigt · 11-23-2016, 05:15 PM

Stock lug became standard for all P 08 pistols in mid 1913; so if it has a lug the frame is from 1913 or later.

An Old Shooter · 11-24-2016, 07:38 AM

Thank you Gentlemen for the information. My friend Rich is delighted with what we have learned here. Being a naturally curious person, he is looking into the history of this Bavarian infantry unit.

Ed

sheepherder · 11-24-2016, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You would guess correctly; the luger assembled by the Russians or East Germans after WWII.

Vertically grooved plastic or Bakelite grips would indicate Russian, brown or black crosshatched plastic/Bakelite grips with a 'bullseye' in the upper quadrant would indicate VoPo/East German grips.

If the vertically grooved plastic or Bakelite grips are genuine (lots of fakes out there) they are worth some money. IIRC, I bought my set for $200.

An Old Shooter · 11-24-2016, 08:01 PM

Interesting about the grips. These are vertical without the bulls eye so they may be Russian. What should we look for to ensure they are legitimate?

I can get pictures after the weekend.

Thank you Sheepherder.

An Old Shooter · 11-24-2016, 08:59 PM

I took a look and the grips appear to be Bakelite made with some care and precision and with two 1/4 inch dimples inside both grips. Fit is good with no chips or dings.

ithacaartist · 11-24-2016, 10:26 PM

The hot pin test will tell. Heat a pin red hot. Briefly press the tip into an appropriate spot on the back side's surface. Bakelite might give a whiff of hot electrical stuff, but the pin will melt the plastic and sink in if you push. That's the diff.

With other plastic copies of German or VoPo Bakelite grips, the mold makers forgo the tapped holes on the back, or at least the threads, particularly on the cheapest ones. One should be able to turn a grip screw into these holes. Without seeing pics, the "dimples" remind me of this. If the Russian Bakelite grips have threaded holes ordinarily, this might also be a clue. I have, however, never had any in-hand, whether real or repro, and I cannot say.

An Old Shooter · 11-25-2016, 09:37 AM

Thanks Ithacaartist, they pass the test for Bakelite. There are no screw holes in the back. I'll have pictures soon when granddaughter returns with the camera.

Dimples are round 5/16 in. dia. and about 1/16 deep with round bottom and centered 7/8 back from front. Top dimple is centered 1 1/4 from top and bottom dimple is 1 5/8 down.

Magazine is nice with 122 over eagle and smaller 57 at bottom left side and eagle and 57 toward top. Number is 4267 h +. Thanks again. I find all this very interesting.

11-17-2016, 05:56 PM	#1
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Unit mark? Boy.21 J.R.M.G. A friend just acquired an interesting Luger with the cited marking. It appears to be East German with black grips with vertical grooves, a different but functional side plate, unmatched numbers and over stamps on the frame and elsewhere. It appears to be a commercial DWM said to be 1920s with import marks on the barrel. It was priced at $1000 which I thought a little high. Condition will make it a fair shooter. Sorry, no pictures. Can anyone translate the unit markings for us please? Thanks.

11-17-2016, 07:41 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Boy? really? or a script "B"? 21 J.R.M.G. would likely be Infantry Regiment 21 Machine Gun(company) $1000 is a little high for only a "fair" shooter. Black grips with vertical grooves are Russian. Pictures? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

11-17-2016, 09:15 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Maybe "Bayerische" = Bavarian Holster and extra mag may help, depends on if they are reproductions or original. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

11-23-2016, 05:15 PM	#12
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Stock lug became standard for all P 08 pistols in mid 1913; so if it has a lug the frame is from 1913 or later. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

11-24-2016, 10:26 PM	#17
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	The hot pin test will tell. Heat a pin red hot. Briefly press the tip into an appropriate spot on the back side's surface. Bakelite might give a whiff of hot electrical stuff, but the pin will melt the plastic and sink in if you push. That's the diff. With other plastic copies of German or VoPo Bakelite grips, the mold makers forgo the tapped holes on the back, or at least the threads, particularly on the cheapest ones. One should be able to turn a grip screw into these holes. Without seeing pics, the "dimples" remind me of this. If the Russian Bakelite grips have threaded holes ordinarily, this might also be a clue. I have, however, never had any in-hand, whether real or repro, and I cannot say. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

11-17-2016, 07:59 PM	#3
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Don, That would be Bay, with a Roman B mostly filled out. A closer look makes that an a in Bay, not Boy. Sorry. The note says it included holster and extra mag for the $1000. Bore is strong with light pitting. Ed

11-18-2016, 02:59 PM	#5
abukafura Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Northeast Wisconsin, near Greeen Bay Posts: 327 Thanks: 1,314 Thanked 89 Times in 57 Posts	Is there a date over the chamber? If so, it should be 1916 or earlier. The unit mark is indeed a Bavarian mark for the Bavarian 21st Infantry Rgt, Machine Gun Company

11-18-2016, 03:58 PM	#6
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	No date over the chamber on what looks like a commercial top with no military poofs. An N on the left side is almost touched by 2144 which is also on the barrel. The frame has an etched out two digit number and l (el) with 2144 added underneath. Toggle seems commercial with etched 44 on top. Side plate with etched 44 is not typical German but works. I would guess the top and bottom did not start out together. Thanks for the information. This is all very interesting and educational for those who love Lugers and their history.

11-18-2016, 04:30 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Is there a stock lug?

11-18-2016, 08:37 PM	#9
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Hello George. I think there is a lug, but the pistol is in Arlington and I am in Mt. Jackson for opening day. I can check it on Wednesday. Thanks for your interest. I am enjoying the 20's .30 you passed on to me a few months ago. Thanks again. Ed S.

11-18-2016, 09:28 PM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Ed, I live in Mt Jackson.

11-23-2016, 05:11 PM	#11
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Yes George, I was in your home to purchase a pistol some months ago. Anyway, the Luger here does have a stock lug. Is that significant? Thanks for you interest. Ed

11-24-2016, 07:38 AM	#13
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thank you Gentlemen for the information. My friend Rich is delighted with what we have learned here. Being a naturally curious person, he is looking into the history of this Bavarian infantry unit. Ed

11-24-2016, 08:01 PM	#15
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Interesting about the grips. These are vertical without the bulls eye so they may be Russian. What should we look for to ensure they are legitimate? I can get pictures after the weekend. Thank you Sheepherder.

11-24-2016, 08:59 PM	#16
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I took a look and the grips appear to be Bakelite made with some care and precision and with two 1/4 inch dimples inside both grips. Fit is good with no chips or dings.

11-25-2016, 09:37 AM	#18
An Old Shooter User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 23 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Ithacaartist, they pass the test for Bakelite. There are no screw holes in the back. I'll have pictures soon when granddaughter returns with the camera. Dimples are round 5/16 in. dia. and about 1/16 deep with round bottom and centered 7/8 back from front. Top dimple is centered 1 1/4 from top and bottom dimple is 1 5/8 down. Magazine is nice with 122 over eagle and smaller 57 at bottom left side and eagle and 57 toward top. Number is 4267 h +. Thanks again. I find all this very interesting.