1906 Ideal Holster Market Value

Hugo Borchardt · 03-05-2011, 11:08 AM

One just went for $1125 on ebay. Gunbroker has a second with a couple pieces missing that is about half that with about 5 days to go.

None I have seen look to be in grand condition. If not purchased as a rig, it is very difficult to find the special grips required.

Ideal made a similar holster for the Colt, and maybe S&W:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ7myzGmfIE

Original holsters for early commercial Lugers are kind of scarce and in some instances difficult to identify. Talk about something to look out for at a flea market!

sheepherder · 03-05-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Rickman

Talk about something to look out for at a flea market!

If I saw that at a flea market, I'd think it was part of an artificial arm...

What do the grips look like???

(I was at the Import Auto Show at Carlisle one year; guy had a tent with really old dental tools & medical stuff...I found a great nickel plated battery terminal spreader...Yelled out to my [then] wife, "Hey! I..."... that was as far as I got...She *flew* across the tent to snatch it away and put it down...I mean, really...How was I to know???)

lugerholsterrepair · 03-05-2011, 05:34 PM

Clark, If you have ever shot a stocked 9mm you will see that the stock kicks you pretty good. The twin blades on these rigs seem like they would be extremely uncomfortable.

Ron Wood · 03-05-2011, 06:01 PM

The grips look like this:

Ron Wood · 03-05-2011, 06:08 PM

An Ideal stock assembled to a Luger is second from the bottom

sheepherder · 03-05-2011, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

The grips look like this:

...???...Shouldn't the grips be mirror images of each other (the steel plates/slots)??? Why do they look so different??? Has someone welded in one of the slots for the upper hook (and ground it smooth)???

...Just in case I'm at that flea market...

Ron Wood · 03-05-2011, 06:51 PM

Aaarrrg...you are correct. I pulled up the worng images. Hope I can find the right ones in the jungle of my files.

I give up. I can't find it right now. I will delete the inside image and if I have to I will photograph my grips at a later date.

saab-bob · 03-05-2011, 07:02 PM

Ron
Wonderful pic of all the known stocks for a Luger.
The one on the bottom is very rare. I have never seen one in person,only pics.
I love shooting stocked pistols.
Bob

wlyon · 03-05-2011, 07:41 PM

Ron
Amazing collection. Thanks for sharing. Bill

Hugo Borchardt · 03-06-2011, 12:03 PM

Postino: looks like an artificial arm indeed.

Jerry: Looks like a design flaw..Surprised there isn't some type of padding.

Ron: Thanks for the photos. Love the Benke Thieman on the bottom! Ran across this photo of a wild holster for it on another forum:

Clark

cirelaw · 03-06-2011, 02:19 PM

Thats the shere beauty of our hobby/passion. there always another "WHOW!!

Ron Wood · 03-06-2011, 07:30 PM

Clark,
As you probably know (but didn't mention

) that is my B-T stock and holster. The holster is one of only two or three known.

Bob,
That is not all of the known Luger stocks. There is one other, the experimental Gomann-Grunow collapsing tubular stock. I have only seen pictures of it, and since there apparently are no examples in the US, no one has filed for an exemption for it with the BATFE.

cirelaw · 03-06-2011, 08:25 PM

Why were there stock lugs legal but aside from a carbine, artillery or navy there use of one is illegal? Were snail drums also outlawed at one time? Is it illegal to fire my navy or carbine without a stock?

Ron Wood · 03-06-2011, 08:45 PM

The answer(s) lie with the Gun Control Act and the BATFE. This stock lug topic has been discussed many, many times on both forums (I believe you yourself have participated in the past). Do a search and I am sure you will be able to come up with the explanation. To my knowledge the snail drum magazine has never been illegal. Of course it is not illegal to fire your Lugers without a stock.

cirelaw · 03-06-2011, 08:48 PM

No prob! They never touched this in Law School!

saab-bob · 03-06-2011, 10:30 PM

Ron
As you say,that Gomann-Grunow luger is really rare.
Here is the only mention I could find on the net.

In German Lugers, a 1906 DWM commercial contract Navy model was $5175 (est. $5500/7500); a 1902 DWM "fat barrel" commercial, $7475 (est. $8500/12,000); an Abercrombie & Fitch reworked 1906 model, $9775 (est. $7500/9500); a Mauser banner 1939 model, $1725 (est. $1000/1500); a Mauser Persian contract artillery model with shoulder stock, $4887.50 (est. $3750/5500); and a telescoping shoulder stock made by Gomann and Grunow, $9200 (est. $5000/6000).

This is from a Rock Island Auction in 2006.

No pics!

Bob

sheepherder · 03-06-2011, 10:55 PM

Found this pic of the Ideal - Actually, it looks like the tubes telescope on this one, too...

I can see a button on the top tube, and the bottom tube is hinged...

Ah! It *does* telescope...As this familiar pic of Dwight Gruber's old ideal stock shows...

Gee...I wonder who wound up with this stock???

Hugo Borchardt · 03-07-2011, 09:28 AM

Postino: Nice one! First photo I've ever seen of the steel backing of the grips.

Ron: One amazing holster! Total coincidence, though. Had never seen one and I should've guessed it was yours!

Clark

sheepherder · 03-07-2011, 05:28 PM

Clark -

For some reason, my browser didn't load the two pics of your holster, just the catalog pic...I only saw yours after tracking down Dwight's/Ron's holster...

As Ron stated, the two grip halves aren't mates...With that one cavity welded shut, I don't even think they would allow attachment (my best guess)...

John Sabato · 03-08-2011, 08:35 AM

Clark,

Check out his link to a section of our old gallery... look in the folder named SCHWOB. That was the late Bob Spitzer's screen name. His Ideal Luger and stock was one of the nicest I have ever seen.

http://www.lugerforum.com/lugerowner2.html

Bob actually lent this Ideal stock to another member, ViggoG (Viggo Dereng) who is now also deceased. Viggo was a WW2 vet, and had been a master machinist for NASA during his working career... Lugers were his hobby. He used his amazing skill to create a reproduction of Bob's Ideal stock. Unless you were an expert, you probably wouldn't have been able to tell that his was not original. He made the holster portion out of a the leather in an old second hand ladies leather coat.

There used to be an album of his handiwork in one of the galleries, but I can no longer find it. If any long time member has the photos of dear Viggo's reproduction Ideal stock and the comparison to Bob Spitzer's original, I am am sure that many would appreciate it if you would create a new photo album so that new generations of Luger enthusiasts could enjoy them. I know I would love to see those photos again.
I once mentioned on the forum that my father's war trophy Luger was brought home with two magazines that both had cracked wooden bottoms. Viggo asked me to send him the magazines to see if he could use his fabrication skills to mend the bottoms as a favor to my Dad. A week later, both magazines were returned with brand new walnut bottoms he had hand made... they were perfect in every respect. He had also ironed out the minor dents in the magazine tubes, and the magazines function flawlessly after that. He told me that the work was a gift to honor my Dad's service in WW2... What a guy. I know he is missed by many members here, especially Ed Tinker and myself.

Rest in Peace Bob and Viggo... your kindness and reputation as gentlemen will live long in the hearts of your friends.

03-05-2011, 11:08 AM	#1
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 131 Times in 47 Posts	1906 Ideal Holster Market Value One just went for $1125 on ebay. Gunbroker has a second with a couple pieces missing that is about half that with about 5 days to go. None I have seen look to be in grand condition. If not purchased as a rig, it is very difficult to find the special grips required. Ideal made a similar holster for the Colt, and maybe S&W: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ7myzGmfIE Original holsters for early commercial Lugers are kind of scarce and in some instances difficult to identify. Talk about something to look out for at a flea market! Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

03-05-2011, 05:34 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Clark, If you have ever shot a stocked 9mm you will see that the stock kicks you pretty good. The twin blades on these rigs seem like they would be extremely uncomfortable. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-05-2011, 06:01 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The grips look like this: Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 03-05-2011 at 07:00 PM.

03-05-2011, 06:08 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	An Ideal stock assembled to a Luger is second from the bottom Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-05-2011, 06:51 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Aaarrrg...you are correct. I pulled up the worng images. Hope I can find the right ones in the jungle of my files. I give up. I can't find it right now. I will delete the inside image and if I have to I will photograph my grips at a later date. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-05-2011, 07:02 PM	#8
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Ron Wonderful pic of all the known stocks for a Luger. The one on the bottom is very rare. I have never seen one in person,only pics. I love shooting stocked pistols. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

03-05-2011, 07:41 PM	#9
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Ron Amazing collection. Thanks for sharing. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-06-2011, 12:03 PM	#10
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 131 Times in 47 Posts	Postino: looks like an artificial arm indeed. Jerry: Looks like a design flaw..Surprised there isn't some type of padding. Ron: Thanks for the photos. Love the Benke Thieman on the bottom! Ran across this photo of a wild holster for it on another forum: Clark Attached Thumbnails __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm Last edited by Hugo Borchardt; 03-06-2011 at 01:10 PM.

03-06-2011, 02:19 PM	#11
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thats the shere beauty of our hobby/passion. there always another "WHOW!!

03-06-2011, 07:30 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Clark, As you probably know (but didn't mention ) that is my B-T stock and holster. The holster is one of only two or three known. Bob, That is not all of the known Luger stocks. There is one other, the experimental Gomann-Grunow collapsing tubular stock. I have only seen pictures of it, and since there apparently are no examples in the US, no one has filed for an exemption for it with the BATFE. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-06-2011, 08:25 PM	#13
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Why were there stock lugs legal but aside from a carbine, artillery or navy there use of one is illegal? Were snail drums also outlawed at one time? Is it illegal to fire my navy or carbine without a stock?

03-06-2011, 08:45 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The answer(s) lie with the Gun Control Act and the BATFE. This stock lug topic has been discussed many, many times on both forums (I believe you yourself have participated in the past). Do a search and I am sure you will be able to come up with the explanation. To my knowledge the snail drum magazine has never been illegal. Of course it is not illegal to fire your Lugers without a stock. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-06-2011, 08:48 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	No prob! They never touched this in Law School!

03-06-2011, 10:30 PM	#16
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Ron As you say,that Gomann-Grunow luger is really rare. Here is the only mention I could find on the net. In German Lugers, a 1906 DWM commercial contract Navy model was $5175 (est. $5500/7500); a 1902 DWM "fat barrel" commercial, $7475 (est. $8500/12,000); an Abercrombie & Fitch reworked 1906 model, $9775 (est. $7500/9500); a Mauser banner 1939 model, $1725 (est. $1000/1500); a Mauser Persian contract artillery model with shoulder stock, $4887.50 (est. $3750/5500); and a telescoping shoulder stock made by Gomann and Grunow, $9200 (est. $5000/6000). This is from a Rock Island Auction in 2006. No pics! Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

03-06-2011, 10:55 PM	#17
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Found this pic of the Ideal - Actually, it looks like the tubes telescope on this one, too... I can see a button on the top tube, and the bottom tube is hinged... Ah! It does telescope...As this familiar pic of Dwight Gruber's old ideal stock shows... Gee...I wonder who wound up with this stock??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-07-2011, 09:28 AM	#18
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 131 Times in 47 Posts	Postino: Nice one! First photo I've ever seen of the steel backing of the grips. Ron: One amazing holster! Total coincidence, though. Had never seen one and I should've guessed it was yours! Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

03-07-2011, 05:28 PM	#19
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Clark - For some reason, my browser didn't load the two pics of your holster, just the catalog pic...I only saw yours after tracking down Dwight's/Ron's holster... As Ron stated, the two grip halves aren't mates...With that one cavity welded shut, I don't even think they would allow attachment (my best guess)... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-08-2011, 08:35 AM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Clark, Check out his link to a section of our old gallery... look in the folder named SCHWOB. That was the late Bob Spitzer's screen name. His Ideal Luger and stock was one of the nicest I have ever seen. http://www.lugerforum.com/lugerowner2.html Bob actually lent this Ideal stock to another member, ViggoG (Viggo Dereng) who is now also deceased. Viggo was a WW2 vet, and had been a master machinist for NASA during his working career... Lugers were his hobby. He used his amazing skill to create a reproduction of Bob's Ideal stock. Unless you were an expert, you probably wouldn't have been able to tell that his was not original. He made the holster portion out of a the leather in an old second hand ladies leather coat. There used to be an album of his handiwork in one of the galleries, but I can no longer find it. If any long time member has the photos of dear Viggo's reproduction Ideal stock and the comparison to Bob Spitzer's original, I am am sure that many would appreciate it if you would create a new photo album so that new generations of Luger enthusiasts could enjoy them. I know I would love to see those photos again. I once mentioned on the forum that my father's war trophy Luger was brought home with two magazines that both had cracked wooden bottoms. Viggo asked me to send him the magazines to see if he could use his fabrication skills to mend the bottoms as a favor to my Dad. A week later, both magazines were returned with brand new walnut bottoms he had hand made... they were perfect in every respect. He had also ironed out the minor dents in the magazine tubes, and the magazines function flawlessly after that. He told me that the work was a gift to honor my Dad's service in WW2... What a guy. I know he is missed by many members here, especially Ed Tinker and myself. Rest in Peace Bob and Viggo... your kindness and reputation as gentlemen will live long in the hearts of your friends. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*