Help with Black AWM -3-11 Holster

Pistol · 07-31-2009, 12:36 AM

I have a black AWM, workshop three, 1911 holster. Inside top flap is marked 16.J.R.1.B.

On the the left side (still inside top flap) it is marked 2.R.J.R. IIB

The holster came with a commercial PO8 with serial # that indicats the year of manufacture was 1910-1913. The take down tool has a crown over a maybe a german script C.

Do the markings inside the holster indicate it was issued for military use later? Does the J.R. signify Jager/Infantry Regiment and R.J.R reserve Jager Regiment? From WWI or WWII?

This gun and holster was taken from a German at Munich in Dec. 1944 Germany. The German claimed to be the mayor or a high ranking political official of Munich. He was in his 50's.

The German owner would have been in his 20's around 1911 and maybe he was the original owner that served in WW1 if someone can confirm the aformentioned RJR and JR stamps are WWI military units.

alanint · 07-31-2009, 06:51 AM

That GI must have taken a wrong turn and been WAY behind the lines to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December, 1944!!
In December 1944 we were getting a tarring in the Ardennes and the only incursion into the Reich had taken place weeks before in the Aachen area.

I'm sure they mean 1945

George Anderson · 07-31-2009, 08:06 AM

These unit markings have already been identified for you on Jan Still's site.

Pistol · 07-31-2009, 04:01 PM

The early holster teamed with the unit marks and commercial pistol lead to the plausible assumption that the gun was carried by an officer.

The unit markings are Infantry Regiment 2, Second Battalion Staff and Infantry Regiment 16, First Battalion staff. I can not give you more details on the unit markings at this time as I am away from my library.

Was that you George with the above answer. Thanks for that answer. But you have to excuse my ingnorance as the previous poster pointed out. I was not certain if that was WWI or WWII. See complete questions from this post.
I'm sure you assumed I knew which War the regiments served.

Pistol · 07-31-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

That GI must have taken a wrong turn and been WAY behind the lines to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December, 1944!!
In December 1944 we were getting a tarring in the Ardennes and the only incursion into the Reich had taken place weeks before in the Aachen area.

I'm sure they mean 1945

Alanint - I will have to check with that GI and see if I misunderstood 1944 vs. 1945. Also try and confirm Dec. I may have misunderstood that as well. However, I don't really see the significance as it relates to the question unless you are implying the GI does not exist.

Nevertheless, I can assure you that it was taken from a German(either officer or political official) by a real living WWII Gi that served in the 3rd Infantry Division (nicknamed the Rock of the Marne).

In May the Division broke out of the beachhead and drove on to Rome, and then went into training for the invasion of Southern France. On August 15, 1944, another D-day, the Division landed at St. Tropez, advanced up the Rhone Valley, through the Vosges Mountains, and reached the Rhine at Strasbourg, November 26 – November 27, 1944. After maintaining defensive positions it took part in clearing the Colmar Pocket, 23 January 18 February 1945, and on 15 March struck against Siegfried Line positions south of Zweibrucken. The Division smashed through the defenses and crossed the Rhine, March 26, 1945 ; then drove on to take Nurnberg in a fierce battle, capturing the city in block-by-block fighting, 17-20 April. The 3rd pushed on to take Augsburg and Munich, 27-30 April, and was in the vicinity of Salzburg when the war in Europe ended. The 3rd Division suffered more combat deaths in World War II than any other U.S. division, and the third highest among modern U.S. Divisions, behind only the 2nd Infantry Division in the Korean War and the 1st Cavalry Division in the Vietnam War.[citation needed]

Maybe it was spring 1945 since the above indicates they took Munich in April. What do you think Al?

George Anderson · 07-31-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistol

The early holster teamed with the unit marks and commercial pistol lead to the plausible assumption that the gun was carried by an officer.

The unit markings are Infantry Regiment 2, Second Battalion Staff and Infantry Regiment 16, First Battalion staff. I can not give you more details on the unit markings at this time as I am away from my library.

Was that you George with the above answer. Thanks for that answer. But you have to excuse my ingnorance as the previous poster pointed out. I was not certain if that was WWI or WWII. See complete questions from this post.
I'm sure you assumed I knew which War the regiments served.

Yes, they are WWI or earlier markings and lend strong credibility to the chances that the pistol was an officer's private purchase pistol

alanint · 07-31-2009, 08:18 PM

Joe,
I'm not trying to imply anything other than that it would have been a historical impossibility for a GI to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December of 1944.....

lugerholsterrepair · 07-31-2009, 08:49 PM

Doug..I am puzzled by your statement...it would have been a historical impossibility for a GI to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December of 1944.....

How so? The holster came with a commercial PO8 with serial # that indicates the year of manufacture was 1910-1913. Holster is 1911.

This pistol and holster were leftover from the Great War in Germany and ended up in the hands of a Burgomeister in 1944 and subsequently surrendered as war booty to the GI.

I can't see the impossibility of this sequence of events. What am I missing?

Was it that Munich was not captured in 1944 or? Sounds like a simple confusion of dates...I spent 2 years in Viet Nam and I honestly could not come up with any exact dates for the life of me other than general dates of enlistment and discharge.

Jerry Burney

Pistol · 07-31-2009, 10:12 PM

Thanks - Jerry and George!

I may have misunderstood the correct date, but will ask about it again. This GI is now 84 years old. Its hard for me to remeber what I did last week.

Apparently the 3rd was at the German and France border Nov. 1944 - and pushed on to take Augsburg and Munich, April 27-30 1945.

Does anyone know anything about take down tool proofs/ marks? This holster came with one and it is a crown over a gothic or Fraktur letter?

alanint · 07-31-2009, 10:17 PM

Hi Jerry,

Yes, you hit on the problem. Munich was firmly in Nazi hands in December, 1944. See my post above. In December 1944 we were fighting for your lives and the outcome of the war in the Ardennes. The only incursion into Germany itself had occured just weeks earlier in the Aachen area, which is above the Ardennes and just North of the Hurtgen Forrest. The Germans promptly took Aachen back and it was not until the end of January, 1945 that we again crossed the Siegfried line into Germany itself.
This is why I suggested that they possibly meant 1945.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-31-2009, 10:25 PM

Doug, Yes..Undoubtably a date malfunction.

Pistol, There is little in the way of information about a tool with a crown over a gothic or Fraktur letter..DWM tools were known to be blank and Erfurt ( Govt. Arsenal) were as you describe. So the tool you have would be an Erfurt tool regardless of the letter you have. This would date it from say 1914 to 1918 when the war ended & Kaiser W. abdicated..escaped into exile and the crown was no longer used. Technically speaking I suppose it could have been earlier as well...I am not sure when Erfurt began marking tools. Could be 1909-1910.
Perhaps Klause knows?

Jerry Burney

Pistol · 08-01-2009, 01:03 PM

interesting about the tool.......maybe I can get some good picutes to post for the tool..........I've got some pictures (poor quality) of the gun and holster on the Jan Still site under Commercial 1900-1918 DWM thread.

Thanks again Jerry. What is a holster like that worth?

lugerholsterrepair · 08-01-2009, 02:02 PM

What is a holster like that worth? I could tell you if I could see it..Without photo's it's shooting in the dark.

Jerry

Pistol · 08-01-2009, 03:28 PM

here are photos........black AWM

Pistol · 08-01-2009, 03:34 PM

My camera is horiible:

lugerholsterrepair · 08-01-2009, 03:57 PM

Joe, Your holster is a nice one. The inside under the top lid has been dyed..I don't like to see that but it's a minor drawback on an early holster. The leather is healthy looking, little cracking and no apparent flaking..nice & shiney. Stitching looks good...The way I like to see them!
The date and condition is what makes this holster appealing as well as the clear deep markings. The unit mark is another good point.

I would guess this holster would bring $350-450 on the market. Perhaps more if the right guy wanted it. If the economy were a tad better this holster could demand another $200+ in my opinion.
Nazi holsters are a dime a dozen in comparison to these fine Imperial artifacts. While Imperial pieces are not as sought after as the 3rd Reich items they are infinately more interesting to advanced collectors and those of us who study the "Great War to end all Wars".

You do not appear to be able to activate your macro....Too bad. I would like to see some macro photo's of this very fine rig.

Jerry Burney

klaus 3338 · 08-01-2009, 05:34 PM

Pistol, I´m a German collector and my English is not the best. But I hope it´s good enough that you will know what I mean.
Your holster is an Bavarian holster and your gun is also Bavarian.
It seems that the Luger was iossued at first to the 1. Battaillon of the Bavarian 16. Infantry Regiment which was stationed in Passau and Landshut. Later it was issued to the 2. Battaillon of the Bavarian 2. Reserve Infantrie Regiment.
Because your Luger is a commercial one it seems that it belonged to an officer who was at first member of the 16 Inf Reg. and may be during the Great war member of the B. 2. Res. Inf. Reg.
If the tool you mentioned is a Crown/C accepted tool than it is an Erfurt tool. Only Erfurt Lugers got the C/C acceptance mark.
Erfurt tools have another shape than DWM tools.
I attach a photo of an C/C tool. May be it is the one like yours.
Best regards Klaus

Pistol · 08-01-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

You do not appear to be able to activate your macro....Too bad. I would like to see some macro photo's of this very fine rig.

Jerry Burney

Thanks Jerry - how do you activate macro?

lugerholsterrepair · 08-01-2009, 07:38 PM

Joe, Read the owners manual on your camera. Often it is simple as pushing a button to get closeups to focus. Perhaps your camera does not have the capability...

Jerry
Burney

Pistol · 08-01-2009, 09:58 PM

Klaus

here are tool photos - still blurry - I'll try different camera next week

It is similar to yours but it is slightly differnt crown and not a C. I con't know what letter it is D or N?

07-31-2009, 12:36 AM	#1
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 421 Thanks: 430 Thanked 214 Times in 95 Posts	Help with Black AWM -3-11 Holster I have a black AWM, workshop three, 1911 holster. Inside top flap is marked 16.J.R.1.B. On the the left side (still inside top flap) it is marked 2.R.J.R. IIB The holster came with a commercial PO8 with serial # that indicats the year of manufacture was 1910-1913. The take down tool has a crown over a maybe a german script C. Do the markings inside the holster indicate it was issued for military use later? Does the J.R. signify Jager/Infantry Regiment and R.J.R reserve Jager Regiment? From WWI or WWII? This gun and holster was taken from a German at Munich in Dec. 1944 Germany. The German claimed to be the mayor or a high ranking political official of Munich. He was in his 50's. The German owner would have been in his 20's around 1911 and maybe he was the original owner that served in WW1 if someone can confirm the aformentioned RJR and JR stamps are WWI military units. Last edited by Pistol; 08-05-2009 at 12:07 AM.

07-31-2009, 04:01 PM	#4
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 421 Thanks: 430 Thanked 214 Times in 95 Posts	Answer? The early holster teamed with the unit marks and commercial pistol lead to the plausible assumption that the gun was carried by an officer. The unit markings are Infantry Regiment 2, Second Battalion Staff and Infantry Regiment 16, First Battalion staff. I can not give you more details on the unit markings at this time as I am away from my library. Was that you George with the above answer. Thanks for that answer. But you have to excuse my ingnorance as the previous poster pointed out. I was not certain if that was WWI or WWII. See complete questions from this post. I'm sure you assumed I knew which War the regiments served.

07-31-2009, 08:49 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Doug..I am puzzled by your statement...it would have been a historical impossibility for a GI to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December of 1944..... How so? The holster came with a commercial PO8 with serial # that indicates the year of manufacture was 1910-1913. Holster is 1911. This pistol and holster were leftover from the Great War in Germany and ended up in the hands of a Burgomeister in 1944 and subsequently surrendered as war booty to the GI. I can't see the impossibility of this sequence of events. What am I missing? Was it that Munich was not captured in 1944 or? Sounds like a simple confusion of dates...I spent 2 years in Viet Nam and I honestly could not come up with any exact dates for the life of me other than general dates of enlistment and discharge. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-31-2009, 10:12 PM	#9
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 421 Thanks: 430 Thanked 214 Times in 95 Posts	3rd Infantry Thanks - Jerry and George! I may have misunderstood the correct date, but will ask about it again. This GI is now 84 years old. Its hard for me to remeber what I did last week. Apparently the 3rd was at the German and France border Nov. 1944 - and pushed on to take Augsburg and Munich, April 27-30 1945. Does anyone know anything about take down tool proofs/ marks? This holster came with one and it is a crown over a gothic or Fraktur letter? Last edited by Pistol; 08-01-2009 at 03:19 PM.

07-31-2009, 10:25 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Doug, Yes..Undoubtably a date malfunction. Pistol, There is little in the way of information about a tool with a crown over a gothic or Fraktur letter..DWM tools were known to be blank and Erfurt ( Govt. Arsenal) were as you describe. So the tool you have would be an Erfurt tool regardless of the letter you have. This would date it from say 1914 to 1918 when the war ended & Kaiser W. abdicated..escaped into exile and the crown was no longer used. Technically speaking I suppose it could have been earlier as well...I am not sure when Erfurt began marking tools. Could be 1909-1910. Perhaps Klause knows? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-31-2009, 06:51 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	That GI must have taken a wrong turn and been WAY behind the lines to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December, 1944!! In December 1944 we were getting a tarring in the Ardennes and the only incursion into the Reich had taken place weeks before in the Aachen area. I'm sure they mean 1945

07-31-2009, 08:06 AM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	These unit markings have already been identified for you on Jan Still's site.

07-31-2009, 08:18 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Joe, I'm not trying to imply anything other than that it would have been a historical impossibility for a GI to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December of 1944.....

07-31-2009, 10:17 PM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Hi Jerry, Yes, you hit on the problem. Munich was firmly in Nazi hands in December, 1944. See my post above. In December 1944 we were fighting for your lives and the outcome of the war in the Ardennes. The only incursion into Germany itself had occured just weeks earlier in the Aachen area, which is above the Ardennes and just North of the Hurtgen Forrest. The Germans promptly took Aachen back and it was not until the end of January, 1945 that we again crossed the Siegfried line into Germany itself. This is why I suggested that they possibly meant 1945.

08-01-2009, 01:03 PM	#12
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 421 Thanks: 430 Thanked 214 Times in 95 Posts	interesting about the tool.......maybe I can get some good picutes to post for the tool..........I've got some pictures (poor quality) of the gun and holster on the Jan Still site under Commercial 1900-1918 DWM thread. Thanks again Jerry. What is a holster like that worth?

08-01-2009, 02:02 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	What is a holster like that worth? I could tell you if I could see it..Without photo's it's shooting in the dark. Jerry __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-01-2009, 03:28 PM	#14
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 421 Thanks: 430 Thanked 214 Times in 95 Posts	photos here are photos........black AWM Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Pistol; 08-29-2009 at 10:34 AM.

08-01-2009, 03:34 PM	#15
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 421 Thanks: 430 Thanked 214 Times in 95 Posts	more photos My camera is horiible: Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Pistol; 08-29-2009 at 10:32 AM.

08-01-2009, 03:57 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Joe, Your holster is a nice one. The inside under the top lid has been dyed..I don't like to see that but it's a minor drawback on an early holster. The leather is healthy looking, little cracking and no apparent flaking..nice & shiney. Stitching looks good...The way I like to see them! The date and condition is what makes this holster appealing as well as the clear deep markings. The unit mark is another good point. I would guess this holster would bring $350-450 on the market. Perhaps more if the right guy wanted it. If the economy were a tad better this holster could demand another $200+ in my opinion. Nazi holsters are a dime a dozen in comparison to these fine Imperial artifacts. While Imperial pieces are not as sought after as the 3rd Reich items they are infinately more interesting to advanced collectors and those of us who study the "Great War to end all Wars". You do not appear to be able to activate your macro....Too bad. I would like to see some macro photo's of this very fine rig. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-01-2009, 05:34 PM	#17
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 513 Thanks: 0 Thanked 394 Times in 156 Posts	Pistol, I´m a German collector and my English is not the best. But I hope it´s good enough that you will know what I mean. Your holster is an Bavarian holster and your gun is also Bavarian. It seems that the Luger was iossued at first to the 1. Battaillon of the Bavarian 16. Infantry Regiment which was stationed in Passau and Landshut. Later it was issued to the 2. Battaillon of the Bavarian 2. Reserve Infantrie Regiment. Because your Luger is a commercial one it seems that it belonged to an officer who was at first member of the 16 Inf Reg. and may be during the Great war member of the B. 2. Res. Inf. Reg. If the tool you mentioned is a Crown/C accepted tool than it is an Erfurt tool. Only Erfurt Lugers got the C/C acceptance mark. Erfurt tools have another shape than DWM tools. I attach a photo of an C/C tool. May be it is the one like yours. Best regards Klaus Attached Thumbnails

08-01-2009, 07:38 PM	#19
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Joe, Read the owners manual on your camera. Often it is simple as pushing a button to get closeups to focus. Perhaps your camera does not have the capability... Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-01-2009, 09:58 PM	#20
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 421 Thanks: 430 Thanked 214 Times in 95 Posts	Klaus here are tool photos - still blurry - I'll try different camera next week It is similar to yours but it is slightly differnt crown and not a C. I con't know what letter it is D or N? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Pistol; 08-29-2009 at 10:35 AM.