Phoney Artillery Holster - Page 2

tnak · 02-03-2005, 12:38 AM

Ron, If you look at the ebay posting, I list the serial # as 6816 with a cursive l underneath it. As you can clearly see in the above photo, the stock metal is stamped # 6816. There should be no doubt that this is the same stock as was listed on ebay. Tracy

lugerholsterrepair · 02-03-2005, 12:56 AM

Tracy, Thanks for the photo's of your holster. I must say I admire your candid disclosure. Also your return policy.

I am not the holster Police and people are free to invest their money in any way they see fit. As long as you are showing good photo's they can make up their own mind as to authenticity. After reviewing your latest photo's I may have done you a grave injustice. Your rig does have the marks of being mostly authentic with some questionable parts.

I would love to see a photo of the back of this holster. You would have to remove it from the stock and I do not blame you if you do not want to do this. It can be a little complicated. Took another look at the thread and I see you have provided this photo. The stock block looks good.

There are several things about this holster that do not square with original German manufacture.
The large screw and washer holding on the toe strap to the stock and the boot strap which holds the boot. This is intirely too new to be period. The screw and washer should be a very dark brown color, some are almost black. Under this should be three small hand hammered rivets with washers. Either brass or steel depending on early or late manufacture. This one is sewn and consequently not of German make. I suspect the toe strap has been replaced but the boot is authentic.

The four screws with washers shown attaching the closure strap to the stock are both steel. The washers should be stamped brass. I have never seen steel washers on an original stock. There may have been some, I just have never seen any. I also don't like the corners cut on the leather above the screws. Too much cut.

The last photo you show is the closure strap. It actually looks pretty good but normally the Germans did not mushroom the tops of the rivets this much. Many on original rigs are slightly mushroomed and have three or more flat sides to the top as if they were struck with a small flat bottomed drift.

The photo of the boot you show is not too bad either. In the eBay photo I could not detect a rawhide liner but it seems to have it after all. The date you show certainly is authentic.

The stock wood is a little light but that may be the lighting. Generally they get pretty dark with age compared to the one shown. Maybe it was kept away from light all these years. The iron looks good to me and the metal to wood fit looks like German craftsmanship.
One question, below the 4 screws holding the leather closure strap to the stock, is there a mark stamped into the wood? Crown S for instance?

All in all I think the buyer will be happy with this rig. One thing I have found is accurate close up photo's help to inform those who might find a holster questionable.

I applaud your willingness to discuss your holster here.

Ron, I was discussing two different holsters. The first one was a holster alone. No rig or stock and it is a genuine phoney. The seller sent me a photo of the back but did not put it on eBay.

Jerry Burney

Heinz · 02-03-2005, 08:21 PM

Tracy, you might want to follow the attached links and compare them to your stock and stock iron.

http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/photo4.html

http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/...-15/C5109I.jpg

http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/...-15/C5109H.jpg

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3714

rework
http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/.../AR-18%20L.jpg

tnak · 02-03-2005, 09:13 PM

Jerry, Thank you for your response. As I said earlier, I did not send you these same pictures, and that is where some confusion may have started. I have heard nothing but good about your knowledge of holsters, and I am grateful for the explanation of what is right and what is wrong with this holster/stock. I feel many of us newbies have learned a great deal regarding "righteous" holsters from this post. As for the stock, it does not have any stamping on them except for the #924 in about 1/2" tall characters close to the stock metal.
Thank you Heinz for the links to other lugers/rigs. To my untrained eye, I would think that the screws in the last rework link appear to be "not original" as they appear to be finished completely different than the rest of the metal. My stock doesn't look exactly like the wood in the links, but it is very close, being slightly lighter. My stock is not highly varnished, as some pictures on the links appear, but rather a stained appearance with open pores to the wood. The screws I could not tell from the link pictures, but they are close, but I cannot tell for sure. The washers on my rig is definately not brass.
Pete, I do not know if the picture of the stock metal showed what you are referring to as the "halo" Please tell me if it is or is not supposed to have it. I have been told that the stamping under the barrel should have a halo due to it having been blued and then struck, causing the halo effect.
I have learned quite a bit from this post and hope everyone else who reads this also has gained some knowledge. I wish there were more posts similar to this which gave detailed pictures and explanations of what is right or wrong with the item posted. Thanks to all who posted. I guess more than anything, I need to build a library and educate myself on the intricacies of the Lugers. Tracy

tnak · 02-15-2005, 10:39 PM

The buyer of the stock/holster rig received it today. He said "It's absolutely beautiful. I love it" . I do not know if he is as knowledgeable as everyone on the Forum, but he likes it and that is all that really matters. Tracy

Big Norm · 02-16-2005, 10:42 PM

TNAK,
the serial numbers on the iron of your stock are larger than any that I have seen on any other iron. Does your wood stock have a proof mark? It would be located just below the four screw holes for the strap that goes over the holster lid.
Big Norm

tnak · 02-16-2005, 11:30 PM

Big Norm, There were no proof marks of any kind on the stock. The only markings on the stock were three numbers stamped into the wood near the stock metal. (924) if memory serves me correctly. As for the serial numbers size, I do not know how large they are supposed to be. I did not measure them, but I am guessing that they were about an 1/8" tall, maybe slightly smaller. Tracy

02-03-2005, 12:56 AM	#22
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Tracy, Thanks for the photo's of your holster. I must say I admire your candid disclosure. Also your return policy. I am not the holster Police and people are free to invest their money in any way they see fit. As long as you are showing good photo's they can make up their own mind as to authenticity. After reviewing your latest photo's I may have done you a grave injustice. Your rig does have the marks of being mostly authentic with some questionable parts. I would love to see a photo of the back of this holster. You would have to remove it from the stock and I do not blame you if you do not want to do this. It can be a little complicated. Took another look at the thread and I see you have provided this photo. The stock block looks good. There are several things about this holster that do not square with original German manufacture. The large screw and washer holding on the toe strap to the stock and the boot strap which holds the boot. This is intirely too new to be period. The screw and washer should be a very dark brown color, some are almost black. Under this should be three small hand hammered rivets with washers. Either brass or steel depending on early or late manufacture. This one is sewn and consequently not of German make. I suspect the toe strap has been replaced but the boot is authentic. The four screws with washers shown attaching the closure strap to the stock are both steel. The washers should be stamped brass. I have never seen steel washers on an original stock. There may have been some, I just have never seen any. I also don't like the corners cut on the leather above the screws. Too much cut. The last photo you show is the closure strap. It actually looks pretty good but normally the Germans did not mushroom the tops of the rivets this much. Many on original rigs are slightly mushroomed and have three or more flat sides to the top as if they were struck with a small flat bottomed drift. The photo of the boot you show is not too bad either. In the eBay photo I could not detect a rawhide liner but it seems to have it after all. The date you show certainly is authentic. The stock wood is a little light but that may be the lighting. Generally they get pretty dark with age compared to the one shown. Maybe it was kept away from light all these years. The iron looks good to me and the metal to wood fit looks like German craftsmanship. One question, below the 4 screws holding the leather closure strap to the stock, is there a mark stamped into the wood? Crown S for instance? All in all I think the buyer will be happy with this rig. One thing I have found is accurate close up photo's help to inform those who might find a holster questionable. I applaud your willingness to discuss your holster here. Ron, I was discussing two different holsters. The first one was a holster alone. No rig or stock and it is a genuine phoney. The seller sent me a photo of the back but did not put it on eBay. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-03-2005, 12:38 AM	#21
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, If you look at the ebay posting, I list the serial # as 6816 with a cursive l underneath it. As you can clearly see in the above photo, the stock metal is stamped # 6816. There should be no doubt that this is the same stock as was listed on ebay. Tracy

02-03-2005, 08:21 PM	#23
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Tracy, you might want to follow the attached links and compare them to your stock and stock iron. http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/photo4.html http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/...-15/C5109I.jpg http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/...-15/C5109H.jpg http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3714 rework http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/.../AR-18%20L.jpg

02-03-2005, 09:13 PM	#24
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, Thank you for your response. As I said earlier, I did not send you these same pictures, and that is where some confusion may have started. I have heard nothing but good about your knowledge of holsters, and I am grateful for the explanation of what is right and what is wrong with this holster/stock. I feel many of us newbies have learned a great deal regarding "righteous" holsters from this post. As for the stock, it does not have any stamping on them except for the #924 in about 1/2" tall characters close to the stock metal. Thank you Heinz for the links to other lugers/rigs. To my untrained eye, I would think that the screws in the last rework link appear to be "not original" as they appear to be finished completely different than the rest of the metal. My stock doesn't look exactly like the wood in the links, but it is very close, being slightly lighter. My stock is not highly varnished, as some pictures on the links appear, but rather a stained appearance with open pores to the wood. The screws I could not tell from the link pictures, but they are close, but I cannot tell for sure. The washers on my rig is definately not brass. Pete, I do not know if the picture of the stock metal showed what you are referring to as the "halo" Please tell me if it is or is not supposed to have it. I have been told that the stamping under the barrel should have a halo due to it having been blued and then struck, causing the halo effect. I have learned quite a bit from this post and hope everyone else who reads this also has gained some knowledge. I wish there were more posts similar to this which gave detailed pictures and explanations of what is right or wrong with the item posted. Thanks to all who posted. I guess more than anything, I need to build a library and educate myself on the intricacies of the Lugers. Tracy

02-15-2005, 10:39 PM	#25
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The buyer of the stock/holster rig received it today. He said "It's absolutely beautiful. I love it" . I do not know if he is as knowledgeable as everyone on the Forum, but he likes it and that is all that really matters. Tracy

02-16-2005, 10:42 PM	#26
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	TNAK, the serial numbers on the iron of your stock are larger than any that I have seen on any other iron. Does your wood stock have a proof mark? It would be located just below the four screw holes for the strap that goes over the holster lid. Big Norm

02-16-2005, 11:30 PM	#27
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Big Norm, There were no proof marks of any kind on the stock. The only markings on the stock were three numbers stamped into the wood near the stock metal. (924) if memory serves me correctly. As for the serial numbers size, I do not know how large they are supposed to be. I did not measure them, but I am guessing that they were about an 1/8" tall, maybe slightly smaller. Tracy