Help with Black AWM -3-11 Holster

[klaus 3338]

Pistol, I think it´s this one, the crown/A?!
Regards Klaus

[Pistol]

Yes - that is it. An A! What type of font type style is that? The Fraktur and German script "A" examples that I have don't exactly match the "A" inscribed on the tools. My mark is not has prominent as
yours (mine being faintly stamped).

What does the crown/A mean? Is it Erfurt, and what are the dates of manufacter?

Klaus - where I can I find more about the histories of the regiments stamped on the holster?

The German owner was in his 50's in 1944 or 1945 and said he was a Burgomeister? I wonder if he was the WWI soldier that served in those regiments.

[klaus 3338]

Pistol, so faintly as on the first photo? The second photo is showing all Erfurt tools I know to exist. Erfurt tools are coming in the white and have a special shape.

Reckendorf, a German expert, wrote, that the family name of the acceptance officer started with the A. I´m suspect about this theory which is based an German archives. I have all the names of the acceptance officers of Spandau, Erfurt and other gun and rifle factories. But I must say that I´m unable since more than 20 years to bring some light in this thing.

It´s no problem to find something out about the regiments which are stamped into your holster. I will write something about tomorro. Remember me if I should forget it.

The German owner was a Bürgermeister (mayor, oh, yes in my dictionary stand Burgomeister). May be his father was the member of the Bavarian regiment(s) and former owner of the Luger. But if he was born in the early 90`it could have been possible that he was in the Great war and later Bürgermeister in his 50´s.

It would be nice to see better photos of gun and holster.

Best regards Klaus

[klaus 3338]

Both the Bavarian 16. Inf. Reg. with honor name Großherzog Ferdinand von Toskana and the Bavarian 2. Inf. Reg. with honor name Kronprinz “made” together the Bav. 2. Infantry Brigade. These both were active regiments. In many cases reserve regiments were build with former active soldiers. And in many cases the equipment was transferred from an active to a reserve regiment at the beginning of the Great War. Often the equipment was sold from one regiment to another!!! It seems that it was also so with your Luger and the holster. Because your Luger is a commercial one it seems that your Luger belonged to an officer who had to buy the gun and all equipment with his own money. I know a lot of examples for this practice.

Back to your holster: I think your Luger and it´s holster was at the beginning of the Great War “part” of the Bav. 2. Inf. Reg. and fought as a part of the 1. Bavarian Reserve Division only at the Western front: 1914 and 1915 mostly on the Flanders front (Arras, Artois, Nancy; La Bassee and so on); in 1916 Battle at the Somme and Flanders and Aisne; in 1917 also in Flanders and Artois and 1918 in Flanders (Ypres, Armentieres and Lys).

I visited all these battle fields and will visit them one more in a few weeks.
My grandpa fought there on the German side of course and his brother died there 1918 near Maissemy in France where I hope to find his grave. The attached photos are showing my grandpa who was born in 1887. I remember him well as a really tall man with great hands. On these photos, about 1916 and 1917, he was an Unteroffizier of the 1. Escadron of the Reserve Hussar No. 8.

As I often must write: My English is not the best, but I hope I could answer your question. If not, let me know.
Best regards Klaus

[Ron Wood]

Klaus.
Are you as good looking as your grandfather?

[Pistol]

Thank you very much Klaus for your posts regarding the histroy of the German Regiments and the take-down tool. Also, the photos of your Grandpa are interesting. You should be proud.

The tool I have looks identical to the first close-up tool photo of your last post. Very interesting. What is the range in years the C/A tools were made.......1908 to 1914?

I will try and get better photos of holster and gun.

[Pistol]

Bavarian 16. Inf. Reg. with honor name Großherzog Ferdinand von Toskana and the Bavarian 2. Inf. Reg. with honor name Kronprinz “made” together the Bav. 2. Infantry Brigade.



Is there a list of the soldier or officer names that served in these units?

[klaus 3338]

Ron, I do not.
Pistol, I think these Erfurt tools were made between 1911 and 1914. I got some unit histories. In most cases the names of the soldiers who died in action were mentioned.
Regards Klaus

[Pistol]

Klaus

Was this the same units that Hitler served in or is that a different regiment.

I found this link http://www.hitlerpages.com/pagina32.html


According to this source, In 1914 Hitler joined Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 16 (List-Regiment or RIR 16), part of the 2nd Bavarian Infantry Regiment. The first or second batallion was his batallion, but since he served as a regimental dispatch runner (Meldegänger) his whereabouts and shelters could be different from the locations the front soldiers where at. Sometimes there was a special shelter for dispatch runners and he must have been at the regiment staf buildings a lot too. It was his job to bring messages from the staf to the soldiers in the front line.

It’s important to know that Hitler was part of the 1st or 2nd Kompanie of the Reserve Infanterie Regiment 16 (RIR 16 or the List-regiment) untill October 7, 1915. After that he joined the 3rd Kompanie. Both were part of the 1st batallion of RIR 16. The most prominent sources used here are the Erinnerungsblätter Regimenter Bayerische Armee, Das Reserve Regiment List (Solleder, 1932), Mit Adolf Hitler im Bayerischen Reserve Infanterie Regiment 16 List (Meijer, 1931) and Frontsoldat Hitler (Russell, 2006).













August 5 - München

Hitler’s request to join the German army is granted. He reports to the 1st Bavarian Infantry Regiment but gets transfered to the 1th batalion of Reserve Infanterie Regiment 16 (List regiment) of the 2nd Bavarian Infantry Regiment in München.

October 8 – München

Ceremonial farewell at the Türkenkaserne, with the king present. Hitler might have been there.

October 9 – München

Hitler completes his basic training in München.

October 10 – March to Lechfeld

The 1st battalion marches to Lechfeld for fight training: through the Landsbergerstrasse - Pasing – Gilching (first day) – Türkenfeld (second day). Another source mentions the route through: Alling (a village West of München) and Türkenfeld (also West of München), where they spend the night outside)

Having reached Lechfeld company 1 and 2 spend the night at the Kloster Lechfeld.

October 17 – Lechfeld

Hitler completes his supplementary military training at Lager Lechfeld, Bayern.

[George Anderson]

Hitler was in the 16th Reserve a different unit entirely.

[Pistol]

Thanks George.

[Pistol]

Doug and Jerry -

I spoke to my grandpa today. He is the 3rd Infantry Division WWII vet that obtained the luger with Holster in Munich. He confirmed that it was late April or early May 1945. I had the Dec. 1944 date confused with another story.

Anyway, he said the prisoners were in a line to submit all guns, knives, binouculars, etc. and were instructed to place them in a large pile. This man did not seem to happy about surrendering his luger, and handed it to my grandpa instead of placing it into the pile with the other surrendered items.

He told my grandpa that he was a Burgomeister of Munich. My grandpa stated he looked to be in his early to mid 50's. So, it is possible this man was a member of the Bavarian regiment listed on the Holster.

My grandpa has always assumed he was lying about being a Burgomeister. He did say the man was wearing civilian clothes and not a military uniform.

[George Anderson]

If th guy was THE Burgermeister he would most likely have been isolated from any group as he would have been a high ranking Nazi party member. He may have been a past Burgermeister.

[Pistol]

From Wikipedia:

Bürgermeister, in German: in Germany, Austria, and formerly in Switzerland. In Switzerland, the title was abolished mid-19th century; various current titles for roughly equivalent offices include Gemeindepräsident, Stadtpräsident, Gemeindeammann, and Stadtammann.
In history (sometimes until the beginning of the 19th c.) in many cities (such as Bremen, Hamburg, Lübeck etc.) the function of burgomaster was usually held simultaneously by three persons, serving as an executive college. One of the three being burgomaster in chief for a year (called in some cases in German: präsidierender Bürgermeister; in English: presiding burgomaster), the second being the prior burgomaster in chief, the third being the upcoming one. Präsidierender Bürgermeister is now an obsolete formulation sometimes found in historic texts.
In an important city, especially in a city state (Stadtstaat), where one of the Bürgermeister has a rank equivalent to that of a minister-president, there can be several posts called Bürgermeister in the city's executive college, justifying the use of a compound title for the actual highest Magistrate (also rendered as Lord Mayor), such as:
Regierender Bürgermeister (literally 'Governing Burgomaster' commonly translated as 'Lord Mayor') in Berlin, while in Berlin the term Bürgermeister without attribute refers to the heads of its 12 boroughs.
Erster Bürgermeister (literally 'First Burgomaster') in Hamburg
Bürgermeister und Präsident des Senats ('Burgomaster and President of the Senate') in Bremen
Oberbürgermeister ('Supreme Burgomaster') is the most common version. The Ober- (lit. upper) prefix is used in many ranking systems for the next level up including military designations. The mayors of cities, which simultaneously comprise one of Germany's 112 urban districts usually bear this title. Urban districts are comparable to independent cities in the English-speaking world. However, also the mayors of some cities, which do not comprise an urban district, but often used to comprise one until the territorial reforms in the 1970s, bear the title Oberbürgermeister.

[Pistol]

CHIEF EXECUTIVES
First Mayors
Erste Bürgermeister

TERM DATES Birth & Death
1838 - 1854 Jakob Bauer 1787 - 1853
1854 - 1870 Kaspar von Steinsdorf 1797 - 1879
1870 - 1887 Alois von Erhardt 1831 - 1888
1888 - 1893 Johannes von Widenmayer 1838 - 1893
1893 - 1919 Wilhelm Georg von Borscht 1857 - 1919
1919 - 1924 Eduard Schmid 1861 - 1933

1924 - 1933 Karl Scharnagl, with the honorific
title of Oberbürgermeister since 1926 1881 - 1963

Head Mayors
Oberbürgermeister

1933 - 1945 SS-Obergruppenf. Karl Fiehler 1895 - 1945


Based on these birth and death dates it could only be Karl Scharnagl or Karl Fiehler. If the man was truely a burgermeister. Or based on the previous post maybe he was a lessor vice type mayor. Karl Scharnagl was ousted by the Nazis and the high ranking Nazi Karl Fiehler took his place unitl the Americans came in late April 1945 and then Scharnagl took the office again.

Who knows. Maybe the man was lying looking for special treatment. My next research is going to focus on the two Karl's and see if and when they served in WWI. I know Fiehler served, but don't know where.

Klaus - what do you think? How can I find what regiment Karl Fiehler served in during WWI? If it was Fiehlers gun, would it have had SS and Nazi symbols?

[George Anderson]

Before I spend any more time on this, is the second guy's name Fiehler or Kiehler? You spell it both ways. So far neither of these nor Scharnagl show up in the Bavarian Army's Rangliste of 1914 or in the Ehernliste 1914-1918. Whoever he was he may have been an officer of the reserve in which case it becomes much more difficult to track.

[Pistol]

George - the only two living Mayors of München in 1945 were:

Karl Scharnagl or Karl Fiehler

Karl Fiehler would have been 19 years old in the year 1914 and 50 in 1945.

Karl Scharnagl would have been 33 years old in the year 1914, and 64 in 1945.



According to this he had the following military decorations listed below. However, I can't find where he served.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Fiehler


Eisernes Kreuz von 1914 2. Klasse (EK II) (Engl.: "Iron Cross of 1914, 2nd Class")
Verwundetenabzeichen von 1918 in Schwarz (Engl.: "Wound Badge of 1918 in Black")
Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer (1935) (Engl.: "Cross of Honour for Frontline Combatants")
Kriegsverdienstkreuz (KVK) I. Klasse ohne Schwerter (Engl.: "War Merit Cross, 1st Class without Swords)
Kriegsverdienstkreuz (KVK) II. Klasse ohne Schwerter (Engl.: "War Merit Cross, 2nd Class without Swords)
Goldenes Parteiabzeichen der NSDAP (Engl.: "Golden Party Award of the NSDAP)
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 9. November 1923 ("Blutorden") (Engl.: "Commemmorative Medal of November 9, 1923" - "Blood Order" for those involved in the "Beer Hall Putsch")
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 13. März 1938 ("Österreichmedaille") (Engl.: "Commemmorative Medal of March 13, 1938" - annexation of Austria)
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 ("Sudetenlandmedaille") (Engl.: Commemmorative Medal of October 1, 1938" - annexation of the Sudetenland)
Dienstauszeichnung der NSDAP für 25 Dienstjahre (Gold) (Engl.: "Long-Service Award in the NS-Party, 25 years, Gold")
Dienstauszeichnung der NSDAP für 15 Dienstjahre (Silber) (Engl.: "Long-Service Award in the NS-Party, 15 years, Silver")
Dienstauszeichnung der NSDAP für 10 Dienstjahre (Bronze) (Engl.: "Long-Service Award in the NS-Party, 10 years, Bronze")
SS-Ehrenring (Totenkopfring) (Engl.: "SS Honour Ring - Death's head ring")
Ehrendegen des Reichsführers-SS (Engl.: "Honor Sword of the SS Field Marshal")

[Pistol]

Here are two better photos of the the takedown tool.

Klaus if you are out there - What is your take on the owner claim to be Oberbürgermeister?