totenkopf holster

RJP3579 · 01-19-2004, 09:35 PM

I am new to this forum and was asked by one of your members to post this. I am new to WWII arms and recently aquired a P38 and holster from a veteran who advised his brother-in-law brought it back from the war. The P38 is nice but it turns out the holster is acually a luger holster with a totenkopf or death's head stamped on the flap. I posted picks of the holster on another forum and was advised it was a luger holster used by the SS in the concentration camps. Here is a pic:

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/dh1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/dh1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

This is closer:

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/cleardh.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/cleardh.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

The gentleman I aquired it from seems very genuine but knew nothing about the items themselves other then his brother-in-law brought them back. He received them from his estate a few years ago and was actually trying to turn it into the local police to be disposed of. I would appreciate any info or corrections to what I have posted about the holster...
Thanks...

Navy · 01-19-2004, 09:45 PM

Hi RJP,

Totenkopf holsters are *very* controversial. The markings inside and on the reverse need to be seen to determine what you have. Hope you will send more pix.

Tom A

RJP3579 · 01-19-2004, 09:56 PM

I haven't been ablt to find any other markings at all. Here is a pic of the inside:

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/holsterpouch.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/holsterpouch.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Sorry for the blured pic. If you would like a pic of a specific are, please post where...
I did find some earlier post about these holsters and it does soud extremely controversial. I'll take some pics of the back and post...

RJP3579 · 01-19-2004, 10:15 PM

More pics...

First one, Inside flap. Cannot tell if it is some sort of stamp or an impression from a gun or something that was pressed against it.

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/insideflap01.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/insideflap01.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Second is rear of holster..

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Is that some sort of repair work on the stitches in the back or what. Looks messy...One loop wider then the other..

RJP3579 · 01-19-2004, 10:18 PM

Third pic is also of entire rear...
<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear2.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear2.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Sorry if pics are too big, I can resize if needed...

lugerholsterrepair · 01-20-2004, 12:23 AM

Tom, Could you be more specific about what you mean by very controversial?Like, they don't exist or are easily faked or what? Thanks, Jerry

John Sabato · 01-20-2004, 11:02 AM

You can automatically resize your photos by editing your posts using the pencil/paper icon on each post.

replace the UBB tags [img] and [/img] before and after your photos URL with [thumb] and [/thumb]and the photos will be resized for the message post and clicking on them will provide the full size image for those that want to see them.

There is ONE fly in this ointment. You must make the edits correctly the first time, or the automagic code conversion will gag on your mistake and modify the content of your posting...so be extremely careful... One way to prevent loss of data would be to copy the full text of the edit window into a word processing document so you can always copy it and paste it back over a messed up posting to recover...

I know this sounds confusing, but give it a try...

I have changed your last posting to let you see what the resulting changes look like...

Good Luck... and if you need help, just ask...

RJP3579 · 01-20-2004, 12:05 PM

I changed the rest to thumbs, thanks...

John Sabato · 01-20-2004, 12:50 PM

Good Job...

and BTW, what Tom A was trying to say is that there is little or no documentation to authenticate the originality of the Deaths Head or Totenkopf marked items... There provenance is questionable. Perhaps your holster and holsters similar to it were marked by the soldiers that carried them in some discreet fashion... who knows if we will ever discover the truth. In the mean time, there are unscrupulous vendors who would create such items and tell you an "amazing story" to go with the markings on the items they are selling...

as always, CAVEAT EMPTOR (buyer beware) and ask for documentation that can be authenticated for items that seem too good to be true...

Navy · 01-20-2004, 01:11 PM

Could not have said it better myself, thanks John.
When one studies the old photographs of W.W.I through the Weimar period and early III Reich, one notices a plethora of Totenkopf insignias applied to a variety of things ranging from trucks to holsters. Likewise it was used as the logo for several freikorps units over a period of about 15 years.
For some reason, we American collectors want to make the "leap of faith" that anything marked with a totenkopf was automatically used by the SS and hence was connected with a consentration camp. Well, the KL marked luger/concentration camp nexus has now been effectively debunked by NAPCA members. I feel certain that the same will happen here in time.

Tom A.

Vlim · 01-20-2004, 02:50 PM

Interesting subject,

I was shown a similar style holster, including the same mark (a bit sharper), including a KL (chamber, above the chamber date) marked Erfurt not too long ago.

What were the findings of the NAPCA members regarding the KL-marked lugers?

lugerholsterrepair · 01-20-2004, 07:19 PM

Tom, John, That's what I was trying to clarify. The SS connection or concentration camp link. The deaths head is found on many items like Tom says and I heve seen period photo's of it on holsters.

This one certainly seems authentic. Jerry Burney

Dwight Gruber · 01-21-2004, 12:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
What were the findings of the NAPCA members regarding the KL-marked lugers?<hr /></blockquote>Gerben,

From a post I made on another forum...

Jim Cate and Nico Van Gijn, in the November "Automag", published a well-researched and -considered speculation that these pistols were assembled from leftover Erfurt parts, some of them rejects, by "Werkstatt (workshop) Klett", an old gunmaking family workshop within the Simson/BSW plant. These were assembled to augment new-manufactured stock and increase pistol production. The Kl (for Klett) chamber marking was included to conform to liability laws requiring rework arsenals to identify their work (thus VoNo and Anschutz [and I might also include Frankenschloss--DG]; this would protect Simson itself from product liability at need. The chamber date was added pursuant to the 1910, 1923, and 1932 Army marking regulations.

The published explanation is much more detailed and documented than this brief synopsis. The authors are continuing research on the topic, but are convinced of the truth of their thesis.

--Dwight

RJP3579 · 01-21-2004, 08:16 AM

I have heard many warnings about possibly faked Nazi collectables. The gentleman I purchased this from was also a WWII vet born in 1919. He could not provide any info on how his brother-in-law obtained it. All he could say is that he thought his brother-in-law had some "papers" on it when he brought it back. Unknown what these papers would be possibly his CO's approval for war souveniers (sp?). He will look form them and let me but I don't think he will remember since he seemed to have a slight memory problem. I did see an add from Numrich gun parts for German proof stamps for sale for "restoration purposes" so anything is possible. I would like some advice on where to look to get some more info on this such as an organization or specific book, etc. Thanks for your interest in my recent find. Now, if I could just find a nice Luger to go with this....

John Sabato · 01-21-2004, 10:01 AM

How about posting some photos of the P-38. Many of us here have interest in that gun too, not to mention we like seeing original war trophies that haven't been messed with.

You might also visit our sister forum:

http://www.p38forum.com

Nice bunch of folks over there too...

Vlim · 01-21-2004, 10:07 AM

Dwight,

Ah, that explains since the example I was shown was provided by one of these authors

ark · 01-21-2004, 03:37 PM

Dwight,
How can I get a complete report on the finding
regarding the Kl marked Lugers? I no longer have
membership in the NAPCA.
Regards,
ARK

RJP3579 · 01-21-2004, 06:15 PM

Here is the P38 I aquired with the luger holster.

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/P38nosn.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/P38nosn.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Dwight Gruber · 01-21-2004, 09:53 PM

ark,

Since AutoMag is not commonly available outside the membership of NAPCA, and is copyrighted, your best bet is to rejoin. The organizatin is certainly worthwhile, and Automag is a wealth of valuable information.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 01-21-2004, 11:31 PM

Hello Art,

Dwight has a very good point about the AutoMag copyright as well as the need for folks to join (or rejoin) if Tom Knox's lifelong venture has a chance of continuing alongside the Internet-based forum world.

I am away from my luger library, but this Saturday I will re-read my copy of that edition that dealt with KI lugers (not KL...) and will post my paraphrased summary; hopefully without infringing on the copyright issue...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

01-19-2004, 09:35 PM	#1
RJP3579 User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	totenkopf holster I am new to this forum and was asked by one of your members to post this. I am new to WWII arms and recently aquired a P38 and holster from a veteran who advised his brother-in-law brought it back from the war. The P38 is nice but it turns out the holster is acually a luger holster with a totenkopf or death's head stamped on the flap. I posted picks of the holster on another forum and was advised it was a luger holster used by the SS in the concentration camps. Here is a pic: <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/dh1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/dh1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> This is closer: <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/cleardh.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/cleardh.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> The gentleman I aquired it from seems very genuine but knew nothing about the items themselves other then his brother-in-law brought them back. He received them from his estate a few years ago and was actually trying to turn it into the local police to be disposed of. I would appreciate any info or corrections to what I have posted about the holster... Thanks...

01-20-2004, 12:23 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Tom, Could you be more specific about what you mean by very controversial?Like, they don't exist or are easily faked or what? Thanks, Jerry __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-20-2004, 11:02 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	You can automatically resize your photos by editing your posts using the pencil/paper icon on each post. replace the UBB tags [img] and [/img] before and after your photos URL with [thumb] and [/thumb]and the photos will be resized for the message post and clicking on them will provide the full size image for those that want to see them. There is ONE fly in this ointment. You must make the edits correctly the first time, or the automagic code conversion will gag on your mistake and modify the content of your posting...so be extremely careful... One way to prevent loss of data would be to copy the full text of the edit window into a word processing document so you can always copy it and paste it back over a messed up posting to recover... I know this sounds confusing, but give it a try... I have changed your last posting to let you see what the resulting changes look like... Good Luck... and if you need help, just ask... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-20-2004, 12:50 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Good Job... and BTW, what Tom A was trying to say is that there is little or no documentation to authenticate the originality of the Deaths Head or Totenkopf marked items... There provenance is questionable. Perhaps your holster and holsters similar to it were marked by the soldiers that carried them in some discreet fashion... who knows if we will ever discover the truth. In the mean time, there are unscrupulous vendors who would create such items and tell you an "amazing story" to go with the markings on the items they are selling... as always, CAVEAT EMPTOR (buyer beware) and ask for documentation that can be authenticated for items that seem too good to be true... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-20-2004, 07:19 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Tom, John, That's what I was trying to clarify. The SS connection or concentration camp link. The deaths head is found on many items like Tom says and I heve seen period photo's of it on holsters. This one certainly seems authentic. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-19-2004, 09:45 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi RJP, Totenkopf holsters are very controversial. The markings inside and on the reverse need to be seen to determine what you have. Hope you will send more pix. Tom A

01-19-2004, 09:56 PM	#3
RJP3579 User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I haven't been ablt to find any other markings at all. Here is a pic of the inside: <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/holsterpouch.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/holsterpouch.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Sorry for the blured pic. If you would like a pic of a specific are, please post where... I did find some earlier post about these holsters and it does soud extremely controversial. I'll take some pics of the back and post...

01-19-2004, 10:15 PM	#4
RJP3579 User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More pics... First one, Inside flap. Cannot tell if it is some sort of stamp or an impression from a gun or something that was pressed against it. <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/insideflap01.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/insideflap01.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Second is rear of holster.. <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Is that some sort of repair work on the stitches in the back or what. Looks messy...One loop wider then the other..

01-19-2004, 10:18 PM	#5
RJP3579 User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Third pic is also of entire rear... <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear2.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/rear2.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Sorry if pics are too big, I can resize if needed...

01-20-2004, 12:05 PM	#8
RJP3579 User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I changed the rest to thumbs, thanks...

01-20-2004, 01:11 PM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Could not have said it better myself, thanks John. When one studies the old photographs of W.W.I through the Weimar period and early III Reich, one notices a plethora of Totenkopf insignias applied to a variety of things ranging from trucks to holsters. Likewise it was used as the logo for several freikorps units over a period of about 15 years. For some reason, we American collectors want to make the "leap of faith" that anything marked with a totenkopf was automatically used by the SS and hence was connected with a consentration camp. Well, the KL marked luger/concentration camp nexus has now been effectively debunked by NAPCA members. I feel certain that the same will happen here in time. Tom A.

01-20-2004, 02:50 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Interesting subject, I was shown a similar style holster, including the same mark (a bit sharper), including a KL (chamber, above the chamber date) marked Erfurt not too long ago. What were the findings of the NAPCA members regarding the KL-marked lugers?

01-21-2004, 12:54 AM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren: <strong>What were the findings of the NAPCA members regarding the KL-marked lugers?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Gerben, From a post I made on another forum... Jim Cate and Nico Van Gijn, in the November "Automag", published a well-researched and -considered speculation that these pistols were assembled from leftover Erfurt parts, some of them rejects, by "Werkstatt (workshop) Klett", an old gunmaking family workshop within the Simson/BSW plant. These were assembled to augment new-manufactured stock and increase pistol production. The Kl (for Klett) chamber marking was included to conform to liability laws requiring rework arsenals to identify their work (thus VoNo and Anschutz [and I might also include Frankenschloss--DG]; this would protect Simson itself from product liability at need. The chamber date was added pursuant to the 1910, 1923, and 1932 Army marking regulations. The published explanation is much more detailed and documented than this brief synopsis. The authors are continuing research on the topic, but are convinced of the truth of their thesis. --Dwight

01-21-2004, 08:16 AM	#14
RJP3579 User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have heard many warnings about possibly faked Nazi collectables. The gentleman I purchased this from was also a WWII vet born in 1919. He could not provide any info on how his brother-in-law obtained it. All he could say is that he thought his brother-in-law had some "papers" on it when he brought it back. Unknown what these papers would be possibly his CO's approval for war souveniers (sp?). He will look form them and let me but I don't think he will remember since he seemed to have a slight memory problem. I did see an add from Numrich gun parts for German proof stamps for sale for "restoration purposes" so anything is possible. I would like some advice on where to look to get some more info on this such as an organization or specific book, etc. Thanks for your interest in my recent find. Now, if I could just find a nice Luger to go with this....

01-21-2004, 10:01 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	How about posting some photos of the P-38. Many of us here have interest in that gun too, not to mention we like seeing original war trophies that haven't been messed with. You might also visit our sister forum: http://www.p38forum.com Nice bunch of folks over there too... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-21-2004, 10:07 AM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Dwight, Ah, that explains since the example I was shown was provided by one of these authors

01-21-2004, 03:37 PM	#17
ark User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Dwight, How can I get a complete report on the finding regarding the Kl marked Lugers? I no longer have membership in the NAPCA. Regards, ARK

01-21-2004, 06:15 PM	#18
RJP3579 User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is the P38 I aquired with the luger holster. <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/P38nosn.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~rjp3579/P38nosn.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

01-21-2004, 09:53 PM	#19
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	ark, Since AutoMag is not commonly available outside the membership of NAPCA, and is copyrighted, your best bet is to rejoin. The organizatin is certainly worthwhile, and Automag is a wealth of valuable information. --Dwight

01-21-2004, 11:31 PM	#20
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Art, Dwight has a very good point about the AutoMag copyright as well as the need for folks to join (or rejoin) if Tom Knox's lifelong venture has a chance of continuing alongside the Internet-based forum world. I am away from my luger library, but this Saturday I will re-read my copy of that edition that dealt with KI lugers (not KL...) and will post my paraphrased summary; hopefully without infringing on the copyright issue... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />