Interesting 1902 Carbine...

Pete Ebbink · 10-12-2003, 02:14 PM

Had an older collector near my home show me his 1902 carbine (serial # 2180x).

The gun looks like it is factory original, has all the classic 1902 features, and is in very good condition with the following interesting features :

1. It did have the 1-screw stock lug attaching iron. Iron is serial numbered to the gun's serial.

2. It has a vertical Crown/N proof both on the left frame side as well as on the barrel underside, directly ahead of the tip of the wooden forestock. Believe the vertical C/N proof did not start to appear until 1920 or 1921, so what it is doing on a model 1902 carbine ?

3. The width of the grip safety is very odd. Not the narrow early type but not the wider later type. It's width is in between the two recognized sizes.

4. The front toggle link is absent the DWM logo. Toggle link is completel blank and did not show evidence that it had any metal removed.

5. The shoulder stock plate may be a more recent replacement, as it is thought to be plastic and not of bone or horn material.

The Owner speculates this might have been a pattern gun in the DWM shop that was released for sale later...

Would appreciate any thoughts or comments you folks might have about this piece.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 10-13-2003, 10:05 AM

Photos Pete! Photos... you went to visit a Luger without your camera? We might have to put your name on the weekend moderator duty roster...

Good thing this gun is near your home...huh?

Looks like you will have to ask it out on another date and ask this unique Luger to pose for you... and..."No kissy, no huggy and keep your hands to yourself"

Pete Ebbink · 10-13-2003, 04:26 PM

Hello John S.,

The Owner is a bit hesitant to have photos taken and plastered over the Internet.

He is not afraid to show the gun and welcomes opinions, but would rather have folk see the gun in person and then make an assessment.

I believe he will be at the Reno gun show in November. If there is LF interest and LF folks are coming to the show, I will ask the carbine's Owner if he would not mind bringing the piece for show and tell.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Russ · 10-13-2003, 05:40 PM

Pete I would love to see this Carbine.

Am looking forward to the Reno show. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Russ

Pete Ebbink · 10-13-2003, 07:03 PM

Hello Russ,

I will get things going so he brings his carbine to the Reno show.

See you, again, in November !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

drbuster · 10-13-2003, 10:17 PM

Pete, if I'm not wrong, the C/N proofs appeared around 1910-1912. I would imagine that DWM was still making 02 type carbines at that time, though not many, as I understand that the carbine was a "failure" in the market place. I don't recall ever seeing a 02 carbine with other than BUG proofs, but I have seen only about a dozen examples.

Pete Ebbink · 10-13-2003, 10:58 PM

Hello Doc,

I spoke with Ron Wood after having seen this carbine...

Ron did confirm that the "vertical" Crown/N proof appeared around 1921 and beyond...switching from the Lazy C/N to the vertical C/N.

Sorry we could not get you over to my side of the SF Bay to see this piece. Actually, it was a surprise for me as well. I was just stopping by to pick up some luger books the Owner had borrowed from me and he just popped out this carbine.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

drbuster · 10-13-2003, 11:07 PM

Pete, wouldn't the carbines made in the 1921 era have the full knurled toggles, spiral recoil spring, narrow trigger guard, etc., in other words it is a 1921 carbine, not an 02 carbine. Do you recall the proofs on the 1921 carbine that Russ bought from Ralph?

Pete Ebbink · 10-13-2003, 11:12 PM

Hello Doc,

Cannot remember the details of Russ's 1920's carbine.

But this 1902 carbine is all 1902's (that is, long frame, dished toggle knobs, old style extractor, etc...). The serial number of 2180x also places it in the "correct" range for reported 1902 carbines...and the 1-screw stock lug attaching iron is also correct for the 21xxx range. I think the 24xxx range switched to the 2-screw iron which is much longer that the 1-screw iron.

But the lack of BUG proofs and the vertical C/N markings are odd. And then the totally blank front toggle is equally odd.

And then there is that grip safety that is neither narrow nor wide...quite an unusual piece.

If you can make the Reno show in November, I will make sure this carbine is at the show.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

drbuster · 10-13-2003, 11:51 PM

Look forward to it, Pete.

Lugerdoc · 10-14-2003, 09:27 AM

Pete, I've seen the verticle crown/N proofing on many late 1906 and 1908 Commerical lugers. As I recall, the horizonal use of the C/N didn't start until 1913. TH

10-12-2003, 02:14 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Interesting 1902 Carbine... Had an older collector near my home show me his 1902 carbine (serial # 2180x). The gun looks like it is factory original, has all the classic 1902 features, and is in very good condition with the following interesting features : 1. It did have the 1-screw stock lug attaching iron. Iron is serial numbered to the gun's serial. 2. It has a vertical Crown/N proof both on the left frame side as well as on the barrel underside, directly ahead of the tip of the wooden forestock. Believe the vertical C/N proof did not start to appear until 1920 or 1921, so what it is doing on a model 1902 carbine ? 3. The width of the grip safety is very odd. Not the narrow early type but not the wider later type. It's width is in between the two recognized sizes. 4. The front toggle link is absent the DWM logo. Toggle link is completel blank and did not show evidence that it had any metal removed. 5. The shoulder stock plate may be a more recent replacement, as it is thought to be plastic and not of bone or horn material. The Owner speculates this might have been a pattern gun in the DWM shop that was released for sale later... Would appreciate any thoughts or comments you folks might have about this piece. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 10:05 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Photos Pete! Photos... you went to visit a Luger without your camera? We might have to put your name on the weekend moderator duty roster... Good thing this gun is near your home...huh? Looks like you will have to ask it out on another date and ask this unique Luger to pose for you... and..."No kissy, no huggy and keep your hands to yourself" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-13-2003, 05:40 PM	#4
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Pete I would love to see this Carbine. Am looking forward to the Reno show. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

10-14-2003, 09:27 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Pete, I've seen the verticle crown/N proofing on many late 1906 and 1908 Commerical lugers. As I recall, the horizonal use of the C/N didn't start until 1913. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-13-2003, 04:26 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello John S., The Owner is a bit hesitant to have photos taken and plastered over the Internet. He is not afraid to show the gun and welcomes opinions, but would rather have folk see the gun in person and then make an assessment. I believe he will be at the Reno gun show in November. If there is LF interest and LF folks are coming to the show, I will ask the carbine's Owner if he would not mind bringing the piece for show and tell. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 07:03 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Russ, I will get things going so he brings his carbine to the Reno show. See you, again, in November ! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 10:17 PM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Pete, if I'm not wrong, the C/N proofs appeared around 1910-1912. I would imagine that DWM was still making 02 type carbines at that time, though not many, as I understand that the carbine was a "failure" in the market place. I don't recall ever seeing a 02 carbine with other than BUG proofs, but I have seen only about a dozen examples.

10-13-2003, 10:58 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Doc, I spoke with Ron Wood after having seen this carbine... Ron did confirm that the "vertical" Crown/N proof appeared around 1921 and beyond...switching from the Lazy C/N to the vertical C/N. Sorry we could not get you over to my side of the SF Bay to see this piece. Actually, it was a surprise for me as well. I was just stopping by to pick up some luger books the Owner had borrowed from me and he just popped out this carbine. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 11:07 PM	#8
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Pete, wouldn't the carbines made in the 1921 era have the full knurled toggles, spiral recoil spring, narrow trigger guard, etc., in other words it is a 1921 carbine, not an 02 carbine. Do you recall the proofs on the 1921 carbine that Russ bought from Ralph?

10-13-2003, 11:12 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Doc, Cannot remember the details of Russ's 1920's carbine. But this 1902 carbine is all 1902's (that is, long frame, dished toggle knobs, old style extractor, etc...). The serial number of 2180x also places it in the "correct" range for reported 1902 carbines...and the 1-screw stock lug attaching iron is also correct for the 21xxx range. I think the 24xxx range switched to the 2-screw iron which is much longer that the 1-screw iron. But the lack of BUG proofs and the vertical C/N markings are odd. And then the totally blank front toggle is equally odd. And then there is that grip safety that is neither narrow nor wide...quite an unusual piece. If you can make the Reno show in November, I will make sure this carbine is at the show. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 11:51 PM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Look forward to it, Pete.