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Unread 05-07-2001, 08:30 PM   #41
John D.
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Default Another Datapoint...

According to Gibson (pp 105 - THE KRIEGHOFF PARABELLUM) in discussing markings states:


"... Rear Toggle Link Axle. Only a very few of these have been noted numbered with the last two digits of the serial number, and those have all been in the 8,000 to 10,000 sequence of the range in a random pattern.." (As an FYI - The 8,000 - 10,000 range would be in the 1936 production run.)


Based on the HK examples and records I have - I would say this statement is absolutely correct. Further, I do not know what Gibson used as his reference - whether it was the nearly 1,000 recorded samples he used as the base-line of his book, or the factory records he had direct access to..?? I could ask him, if there is a need?


This is an outstanding thread, by the way...



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Unread 05-07-2001, 09:00 PM   #42
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Default My DWM 1916/1920

Hey Patrick, I just learned something about my DWM 1916/1920 from you. The toggle pin is numbered and matches the serial #. So, I gather that in 1932, it was still property of the state, and the number was stamped at that time. This may be significant to Walt J. and I. If you recall, we both have double dated DWM's with lazy Crown N proofs on the right side of the gun. We have been trying to find out about their unique history. So does that mean that they remained the property of the military up to 1932 after they were reworked in 1920?



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Unread 05-07-2001, 10:34 PM   #43
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Default Re: Another Datapoint...

As far as this being an outstanding thread..just think how many of us are checking our toggle axles tonight..great topic..



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Unread 05-07-2001, 10:38 PM   #44
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Default Re: Another Datapoint...

I still wanna know how they stamped the numbers in the little hardened bastards!!?? till...later...G.T.



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Unread 05-07-2001, 10:43 PM   #45
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Default Re: Another Datapoint...

With 2mm die stamps and REALLY BIG hammers??!!!



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Unread 05-07-2001, 10:43 PM   #46
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Default Re: Another Datapoint...

They stamped them, then hardened them? Just a thought! I know you were leading me on with that one GT! I know Gunsmiths that have to do metal work (major) on hardened parts like a breech block, I am told the deharden them, work on them, then harden again. I am not an expert in metal work, that is just what I heard, I have NO way of knowing it is correct! Ted



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Unread 05-07-2001, 11:02 PM   #47
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Default Re: Another Datapoint...

Hi Ted! They must not be as hard as I think they are! Because if they were stamped during a rework they must be pretty soft...or they went through one hell of a lot of number stamps....the logistics of stamping a soft pin and then heat treat and get it back to the right pistol is....just the sort of thing the Germans would do! thanks Ted! till..later...G.T.



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Unread 05-07-2001, 11:14 PM   #48
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Default BILL & GT ;)

BILL I checked mine an they is all there! GT, you think maybe they had a "real hard tool"?



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Unread 05-07-2001, 11:42 PM   #49
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Default Re: BILL & GT ;^)

The unnumbered axle pins would have been annealed before they were stamped then tempered again after being stamped. If a piece of metal cannot be touched with a file, there is no hand die made that will stamp it without shattering. Some of the pins show where metal has flowed back out around the die when stamped, and hardened steel will not do that.

I have an old set of Starrett number dies, and the instructions tell to give the metal to be stamped the file test before stamping to prevent damage to the die.



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Unread 05-08-2001, 12:08 AM   #50
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Default Re: BILL & GT ;^)

Thanks Johnny! Can you imagine the amount of work it took to keep all there stuff straight! It sounds like thats what they would have to do, anneal, stamp, heat treat, etc...

Which brings me to my original question, do you think they did this with every new completed (Mauser military)pistol?, or, do you think they had a large selection of prenumbered pins that were installed at final assembly??? till...later...G.T.



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Unread 05-08-2001, 12:10 AM   #51
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Default Re: BILL & GT ;^)

Hugh! I like John D's idea...A really big hammer! til..lat...G.T.



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Unread 05-08-2001, 04:20 AM   #52
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Default Re: My DWM 1916/1920

Rick, I suppose it does mean that. The pins were originally unnumbered but were retro-stamped some time after 1932 as they were still state property. The Reichswehr (later called the Wehrmacht) the postal service, customs, border guards and even the railway service were all officially part of the armed forces and would have been issued with numbered Lugers. BUT officers (and high ranking civil servants) would have had to purchase their own hand guns - and these would not have numbered rear toggle pins. Patrick



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Unread 05-08-2001, 04:23 AM   #53
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Default Re: Thank you Patrick...

Robert, I found the Orders in the (German language) 2nd edition of G�¶rtz �´Die Pistole 08�´. His text on why some pins are numbered and some not is an almost literal translation. Patrick



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