Rear Conncecting Pin - Again - Page 2

Dok · 05-07-2001, 04:35 PM

excellent piece of information. Does this document exist anywhere we could scan it and add it to our technical section for future reference. Thank you Patrick, for this valuable input!

Robert Wiggins · 05-07-2001, 04:36 PM

Gentlemen let me throw in the monkey wrench! Patricks point is valid, however, kept in mind that German orders do not necessarily ALWAYS get followed. variations are possible. We must keep an open mind on this.

Factual documentation is a sound basis for judgement. Experience in dealing with articles and research records may contradict the original documentation.

I would be inclined to say that this issue in not completely proven. That being said I agree that error on the side of physical proof is always advised until proven otherwise.

Regards to all;

Frank · 05-07-2001, 04:49 PM

Both manufacturers were suppose to be controlled by the same Orders and Erfurt marked more parts and differently than DWM. It would be nice to find a reference for a specific manufacturer. From what I can tell, none were terrible consistent in the control of changes. Or maybe it just seems that way. Germans were noted for their adherence to detail. If so, why would they mark the vast majority of the pins and not all of them? I don't know that answer.

Johnny Peppers · 05-07-2001, 04:52 PM

The discussion was whether the link pins were numbered or not, not whether they were a variation. Again, are we to take an opinion over valid documentatin? If there is documentation to the contrary, this is the time to bring it to the forum.

Steve · 05-07-2001, 04:54 PM

FWIW I just got through looking at 25 DWM and MAUSER

manufacture ranging in condition from well worn to 98% plus.

I had never really noticed this before or paid close attention to, but all the DWM's connecting pins are UN-NUMBERED whereas all the MAUSER pins are NUMBERED. Of these,one is a 1918 DWM rework by Simson and the pin is un-numbered; another is a Sneak numbered in both the commercial and military style and the pin is numbered.

When it comes down to it, I believe that the "rules" were not always adhered to(gripstrap markings are another example of this).

Just my own opinion, offere entirely for what it is worth.

Steve M.

Patrick · 05-07-2001, 04:57 PM

YouÃ?Â´re right- all of you. So I went back to my books.HereÃ?Â´s the answer why some rear toggle pins are numbered - and some are not: a Heeres-Verordnungsblatt (Army Order Form) dated 2nd August 1931 states that changes were to be made to all issued P 08s to prevent the rear toggle pin from moving out and blocking the receiver. A second Order dated 17th March 1932 stated that the rear toggle pin was to be numbered from then on to prevent old toggle pins being used with Lugers that had been adapted. So (according to GÃ?Â¶rtz), if a toggle pin is numbered on a P08 made before 1932, it proves that the pistol was still owned by the state at that time and had been retro-number stamped. If the rear toggle pin is NOT numbered on Lugers made before 1932, the pistol had either been Ã¢??privatisedÃ¢?Â or was a commercial model. All state owned Lugers issued after 1932 should have numbered rear toggle pins. So a pre 1932 Luger could be "fully numbered" WITHOUT a number on the rear pin but would have a number on the pin if it was still state owned at that time. This would also explain why the toggle pin number often is of a different size and design. Patrick

Frank · 05-07-2001, 05:03 PM

Thanks for your persistence. I am glad you stuck with that research. My appreciation !!!

Robert Wiggins · 05-07-2001, 05:04 PM

Now it all makes sense! I for one can now see the light!

Patrick, please illucidate as to where you found the information. What publication was it in, author, publisher, date, etc. I for one am interested.

Regards to all;

Hugh · 05-07-2001, 05:05 PM

Ahm jes happy wen all ma Loogers hav got togel pens!

Frank · 05-07-2001, 05:14 PM

Dok · 05-07-2001, 05:20 PM

Teedoor won't give mine back!!!!!

Robert Wiggins · 05-07-2001, 05:24 PM

DOK;

You should always treat your Luger as you would your wife!

Never lend it out or you might not get it back! Ha Ha

Frank · 05-07-2001, 05:26 PM

Don't forget he has one of mine up for ransom too!! BTW I think it's Luggar, not Loogar. Now this is from that reknown collector RES !!! Least that's what he tol me at dinner.

Johnny Peppers · 05-07-2001, 05:52 PM

Dok,

No thanks needed. You did very well by yourself.

Marvin · 05-07-2001, 05:53 PM

Patrick,

Thanks for your diligent research on this subject. Now we know the "official" German staement on the numbering of the pin.

Marvin

Johnny Peppers · 05-07-2001, 05:57 PM

Grip strap markings were field applied and did not always follow regulations, but you can bet that if they had been factory applied that they would be uniform.

Dok · 05-07-2001, 06:01 PM

Dok · 05-07-2001, 06:04 PM

wunna them thar swingers... ROFL

Dok · 05-07-2001, 06:06 PM

I cain't spel nohow....

Steve · 05-07-2001, 07:23 PM

I'll agree to that.

05-07-2001, 04:35 PM	#21
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: And Again excellent piece of information. Does this document exist anywhere we could scan it and add it to our technical section for future reference. Thank you Patrick, for this valuable input!

05-07-2001, 04:36 PM	#22
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: And Again - food for thought Gentlemen let me throw in the monkey wrench! Patricks point is valid, however, kept in mind that German orders do not necessarily ALWAYS get followed. variations are possible. We must keep an open mind on this. Factual documentation is a sound basis for judgement. Experience in dealing with articles and research records may contradict the original documentation. I would be inclined to say that this issue in not completely proven. That being said I agree that error on the side of physical proof is always advised until proven otherwise. Regards to all;

05-07-2001, 04:49 PM	#23
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	But Erfurt and DWM had different Interpretations Both manufacturers were suppose to be controlled by the same Orders and Erfurt marked more parts and differently than DWM. It would be nice to find a reference for a specific manufacturer. From what I can tell, none were terrible consistent in the control of changes. Or maybe it just seems that way. Germans were noted for their adherence to detail. If so, why would they mark the vast majority of the pins and not all of them? I don't know that answer.

05-07-2001, 04:52 PM	#24
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: And Again - food for thought The discussion was whether the link pins were numbered or not, not whether they were a variation. Again, are we to take an opinion over valid documentatin? If there is documentation to the contrary, this is the time to bring it to the forum.

05-07-2001, 04:54 PM	#25
Steve User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: And Again FWIW I just got through looking at 25 DWM and MAUSER manufacture ranging in condition from well worn to 98% plus. I had never really noticed this before or paid close attention to, but all the DWM's connecting pins are UN-NUMBERED whereas all the MAUSER pins are NUMBERED. Of these,one is a 1918 DWM rework by Simson and the pin is un-numbered; another is a Sneak numbered in both the commercial and military style and the pin is numbered. When it comes down to it, I believe that the "rules" were not always adhered to(gripstrap markings are another example of this). Just my own opinion, offere entirely for what it is worth. Steve M.

05-07-2001, 04:57 PM	#26
Patrick User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 241 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Again & Again YouÃ?Â´re right- all of you. So I went back to my books.HereÃ?Â´s the answer why some rear toggle pins are numbered - and some are not: a Heeres-Verordnungsblatt (Army Order Form) dated 2nd August 1931 states that changes were to be made to all issued P 08s to prevent the rear toggle pin from moving out and blocking the receiver. A second Order dated 17th March 1932 stated that the rear toggle pin was to be numbered from then on to prevent old toggle pins being used with Lugers that had been adapted. So (according to GÃ?Â¶rtz), if a toggle pin is numbered on a P08 made before 1932, it proves that the pistol was still owned by the state at that time and had been retro-number stamped. If the rear toggle pin is NOT numbered on Lugers made before 1932, the pistol had either been Ã¢??privatisedÃ¢?Â or was a commercial model. All state owned Lugers issued after 1932 should have numbered rear toggle pins. So a pre 1932 Luger could be "fully numbered" WITHOUT a number on the rear pin but would have a number on the pin if it was still state owned at that time. This would also explain why the toggle pin number often is of a different size and design. Patrick

05-07-2001, 05:03 PM	#27
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hurray, Hurray - Thanks Patrick !! Thanks for your persistence. I am glad you stuck with that research. My appreciation !!!

05-07-2001, 05:04 PM	#28
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Patrick... Now it all makes sense! I for one can now see the light! Patrick, please illucidate as to where you found the information. What publication was it in, author, publisher, date, etc. I for one am interested. Regards to all;

05-07-2001, 05:05 PM	#29
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Re: Rear Conncecting Pin - Again Ahm jes happy wen all ma Loogers hav got togel pens!

05-07-2001, 05:14 PM	#30
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hugh, we can always count on U (EOM)

05-07-2001, 05:20 PM	#31
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Ahd be heppy jest to have Loogar... Teedoor won't give mine back!!!!!

05-07-2001, 05:24 PM	#32
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: DOK--Advise! DOK; You should always treat your Luger as you would your wife! Never lend it out or you might not get it back! Ha Ha

05-07-2001, 05:26 PM	#33
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	POOR DOK !! Don't forget he has one of mine up for ransom too!! BTW I think it's Luggar, not Loogar. Now this is from that reknown collector RES !!! Least that's what he tol me at dinner.

05-07-2001, 05:52 PM	#34
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: I take your point... Dok, No thanks needed. You did very well by yourself.

05-07-2001, 05:53 PM	#35
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: And Again Patrick, Thanks for your diligent research on this subject. Now we know the "official" German staement on the numbering of the pin. Marvin

05-07-2001, 05:57 PM	#36
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: And Again Grip strap markings were field applied and did not always follow regulations, but you can bet that if they had been factory applied that they would be uniform.

05-07-2001, 06:01 PM	#37
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	TouchÃ?Â© ! (EOM)

05-07-2001, 06:04 PM	#38
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	So I shouldn't become... wunna them thar swingers... ROFL

05-07-2001, 06:06 PM	#39
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Wahl whaddy I knooo... I cain't spel nohow....

05-07-2001, 07:23 PM	#40
Steve User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: And Again I'll agree to that.