Death Head

Jaime Allan · 07-22-2001, 08:27 PM

I am very interested in buying a death head luger would anyone know where to find one.

Dok · 07-22-2001, 08:36 PM

Welcome to the Luger Forum, Jaime. Good luck... one of our members (Jesse) has been on the hunt for a while now. You do occasionally see them, but they're rare. You might try Ralph Shattuck or Tom Heller (both of which are listed in our LInks and Resources, and both of whom are very reputable. Auctions are another option.

Dok (Webmaster)

Jaime Allan · 07-22-2001, 09:05 PM

Thanks for your input Dok. In your opinion is there any way, or anyone who distinguish a fake from an original.

07-22-2001, 10:51 PM

Boy this is a new one for me. What is a Death Head Luger?

TomN

Thor · 07-23-2001, 01:20 AM

Tom, check Techincal Information, then Proof 6 section, then proof #68. Found on the chamber usually over the date of 1916-1918 Erfurts and DWM(late War with a few 1911s also) reworked Lugers during the Weimar Era of 1919-1933. Symbol of the early Flame throwers (Stosstrupps) and Friekorps or something like that and other theories. The SS adopted this symbol as well. The Death Head S over the Head is suppose to represent a flame thrower HOSE. Information found in Jan Still's Luger books, quite rare. This variation is one that is faked up a lot I understand for bookuuu bucks. The Late Mel Torme had one in his collection and it was purchased, along with other nice Lugers by Ralph Shattuck! Jesse Burke missed this one by about a day or so if I remember correctly. This variation is hottly debated amongst collectors. Interesting and chilling variation. Any of this I got wrong please correct me, I am learning too! ~Thor~

Thor · 07-23-2001, 01:23 AM

Oh yea, also known as the Totenkopf (Death head) Luger! ~Thor~

07-23-2001, 07:34 AM

Thanks Thor, I will look this one up. I guess this is the stuff that makes the Luger so dam insteresting.To bad so many people are profiting by faking them. It be great if there was some kind of data base that could be formed with known fakes and their serial numbers. I'm sure that more than one person has been burned by the same fake Luger being passed along. TomN

bill m · 07-23-2001, 08:32 PM

Hello,

Death Head Lugers are one of the most controversial Lugers around. To the best of my knowledge, no one actually knows what they stand for or even if they are real. All explanations are theory with no actual data to back them up. They are a very sought after Luger, and each collector has to decide if they think they are for real, or just cute. I think the stuff about the SS is total bull-****, but who knows. I have seen a death head with lightning bolts on a byf 41 barrel, which I thought was a fake, but it is in a very large, well known collection. My feelings are that there probably is a few real Death Head Lugers around, but probably more fakes than real ones. My understanding is that these dies have been in Germany for many years and they have been in the United States now for at least 15 years. I would guess that the real Death Heads saw lots of use and action and they should not be in very good condition. A lot of the ones I see for sale are in excellent condition, which makes me wonder. For what it's worth.

G.T. · 07-23-2001, 09:15 PM

I second Bills assessment on the Death head P.08's....when I started collecting 20 years ago or more...these pistols would surface from time to time. I remember that most of them were described as rough condition, mismatch, and reworked...sometimes crudely! They usually were nothing special as to variation, typical WW1 pistols as I remember....till...later...G.T.

07-23-2001, 09:28 PM

In recent years I read frequently the disccusion and bitching about Fakes and Restored lugers being represented as original. Then the advice to buy only from reputable dealer which seems to be synomous with Big well known dealers. After 40 years collecting I am convinced that most of them have sold the afore mentioned merchandise. I think they know it. They may or may not now the origin of the so called enhancment. I'm fairly certain that in some cases they are a party to such work. These so called reputable dealers are like used car salesman---each has his style---but all let you sell yourself. Sure greed allows them to do this--theirs and ours. I believe with out exception; Lugers bought sight unseen can be returned within reasonable time. Those bought in person after our person exam and evaluation are ours to keep or palm off on someone else. All of us and especially the big names with money to travel the major shows; look for the old vet to come in with a rare Luger that we can buy for a song and sell for thousands---and then brag about it. Don't pay attenton to the tag or the ad. Words such as Near mint,Hard to find, Deep eagle are catch phrases just like used cars--sharp! one owner--Low miles! Learn to look past this ask questions of the dealer and yourself. Does the barrel have a hole in it, does it have rifleing in it. is it bright. Numbers match--are they all the same style and appropriate to the model. Ask all the quetions before you order. Ask yourself these same questions when you examine it. Make sure in your own mind that it truely is what it should be not what you want it to be. Don't pay attention to the sales pitch---very few sales people are primarily interested in doing you a favor---they want the $s. Certainly Luger deals between truly close friends[I believe ]are an exception to this. The guys in Auto Mag continually worry about fakes etc and spend a lot of words in writing about the subject. If you don't know what you are buying--don't buy it. My father collected coins. I have some interest. 40 years ago I was in a shop with him looking at a coin with a condition note and price. Dad said "don't pay any attention to the tag indicated conditon, you decide what condition you think it is, then is the price appropriate to your evaluation of condition" I have used this advice in buying Lugers for 40 years. So you bought a fake Death Head--If you only paid a $500 shooter price--what is the problem. I wonder--have I stired up more comment than if I again said stainless steel?

Dok · 07-23-2001, 09:57 PM

I think you made some really good points, similar points in fact to the two posters above you. It always comes down to how much do you know what you are buying? Caveat Emptor is always applicable!

Jesse · 07-24-2001, 12:04 AM

OK I guess I will come out of the shadows on this one so far on my journey looking for the city of gold (A.K.A the Death Head Luger) I have found 4 death Head Lugers and one Death Head PPK. 2 of the DH's were very questionable and one was not for sale (the same collector had the DH PPK) and one was all most mine but the seller (one of the big Luger Dealer's) first give me the price of $1800 and then when I was going to send the payment the price jumped to $2400 needless to say it went out of my cash limit at the time. I was told I could pay the rest later but I was a bit upset at the price jump and did not get the Luger. If I had it to do over I would have got it but alas my quest continues.

07-24-2001, 03:05 AM

Some of the best known dealers have tried to pass off on me restored or refinished Lugers as original when I knew they knew or should have known the status of the piece. Most of the big dealers are collectors as well and generally keep the best for themselves. The problem is that everyone wants mint or close to mint and there are not enough mint guns around to satisfy demand..hence the restorations. I suggest thst an inexperienced collector handle as many Lugers as possible of all vintages paying special attention to guns of KNOWN original provenance so as to develop a feel for what is original. This feel can only be developed by handling numerous examples, so go to every show and handle every Luger in sight. You will start to see similarities in wear patterns on blue and straw colors so you will soon recognixe what is original and what is not. Ask different "experts" about the same gun and compare their

answers. Soon you will know who the bullslingers are and

who can be trusted.

Once when I was examining a prototype, offered to me by a well known dealer, that I suspected was refinished, I compared the frame serial number stampings under strong magnification to the numbers of a know original example and discovered that the subject prototype

numbers had been deepened by an engraving tool and were not stamped as was the original. The numbers had become shallow because of the polishing needed for refinishing. When

spending your hard earned dollars, look very carefully.

Happy hunting,

Bill S. (ALFA2NINE)

Dok · 07-24-2001, 07:28 AM

It would be interesting to know who that dealer was... this type on information should be shared for the benefit of all. Feel free to message me offline.

Dok (Webmaster)

G.T. · 07-24-2001, 10:01 AM

Hi Dok! I do not agree with the posting of any dealers name when it comes from a disgruntled customer.......We are not Luger cops, or watch dogs for justice on this forum...There are many extenuating circumstances when it comes to buying collectibles......I believe that most all dealers will sell you anything you will buy....I have said it several times on this forum, the only guarantee you have for success, is the knowledge that you bring with you to the sale! With out a fair exchange on the matter, irreversible harm can be done to a dealers reputation, only to find out that he was correct later, when nobody cares anymore. I am not in support of fakes or fraud, but also, I'm not in support of lynching! NAPCA seems to be handling the fraud alert quite well, lets stay out of that and keep it simple.....till...later....G.T.

Dok · 07-24-2001, 10:38 AM

That seems reasonable to me. I withdraw my earlier statement.

bill m · 07-24-2001, 10:40 AM

Hi Dok, GT,

Well, I look at this a little different than you do GT. Everyday on the Forum someone gives out names of dealers who to buy from and represent them as the most honest and honorable gun dealers in the world. If we are going to get the "best guy story", then we should get the "bad guy story" also. When all the smoke is clear, this is all about money and who has the pride and dignity to do the right thing. The guys giving out the "best guy story" have apparently had good dealing, but not everyone has. There are good and bad stories to everyone.

renaissance · 07-24-2001, 12:43 PM

Hear Hear!

There are two sides to EVERY story, and we NEED to hear them.

DOK:

I would suggest that:

Each Side (That is the INDIVIDUALS involved) in the specific transaction in dispute;

Be allowed to present THEIR sides of the story.

BUT

That other members of the forum NOT be allowed to participate in the discussion ON LINE.

That way everyone in the forum would be allowed to judge the merits of the dispute, and make decisions based on knowledge (as presented by the litigants)

{no-I aint a Lawyer}

WITHOUT

Turning it into a Witch Hunt.

Sorry to have to suggest adding another cross for you to bear in your trials as Webmaster. doc

It ain't easy having to try to be a Solomon.

Dok · 07-24-2001, 01:11 PM

We certainly don't need to be a police state here, but bill m and renaissance make valid points, and it was my original thought that we need the good and the bad info, however I'm not clear at this point that the vendor was a vendor supported by this forum (in which case I would have more of a vested interest).

I think this is really up to Jesse, and whether he feels it is information he wishes to share with the group. G. T. may have a point also in that there may well have been a valid reason for the price change that was not illucidated in Jesse's post.

For now I choose to leave it in Jesse's hands to post more info if he chooses to. If he does I will se that that info is disseminated, and if he chooses not to, then that is the end of it.

Dok

Luke · 07-24-2001, 01:30 PM

Dok,

I still feel like a newbie here and am somewhat reluctant to express an opinion on some things, but this question is not a Luger question; it is a question of allowing members to state their concerns about a product or dealer. As long as these expressions are made in a fair and reasonable manner, the information and resulting comments can be helpful to all forum members.

I also participate in a woodworking forum where both good and bad expeiences with a dealer or product are allowed and names are called. What often happens there is that someone will document a concern regarding a dealer or product and others on the forum will support with similar experiences with that dealer or product. Or, they will sometimes come back with a chorus-like response supporting the product or dealer, leading one to conclude that the original complaint was either incorrect or just a fluke. Allowing free expression about dealers and products has not seemed to have any detrimental effect on the woodworking forum.

Just my $.02, Hope I haven't offended anyone.

07-22-2001, 08:27 PM	#1
Jaime Allan User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Death Head I am very interested in buying a death head luger would anyone know where to find one.

07-22-2001, 08:36 PM	#2
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Death Head Welcome to the Luger Forum, Jaime. Good luck... one of our members (Jesse) has been on the hunt for a while now. You do occasionally see them, but they're rare. You might try Ralph Shattuck or Tom Heller (both of which are listed in our LInks and Resources, and both of whom are very reputable. Auctions are another option. Dok (Webmaster)

07-22-2001, 09:05 PM	#3
Jaime Allan User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Death Head Thanks for your input Dok. In your opinion is there any way, or anyone who distinguish a fake from an original.

07-22-2001, 10:51 PM	#4
TomN Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Death Head Boy this is a new one for me. What is a Death Head Luger? TomN

07-23-2001, 01:20 AM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Death Head Tom, check Techincal Information, then Proof 6 section, then proof #68. Found on the chamber usually over the date of 1916-1918 Erfurts and DWM(late War with a few 1911s also) reworked Lugers during the Weimar Era of 1919-1933. Symbol of the early Flame throwers (Stosstrupps) and Friekorps or something like that and other theories. The SS adopted this symbol as well. The Death Head S over the Head is suppose to represent a flame thrower HOSE. Information found in Jan Still's Luger books, quite rare. This variation is one that is faked up a lot I understand for bookuuu bucks. The Late Mel Torme had one in his collection and it was purchased, along with other nice Lugers by Ralph Shattuck! Jesse Burke missed this one by about a day or so if I remember correctly. This variation is hottly debated amongst collectors. Interesting and chilling variation. Any of this I got wrong please correct me, I am learning too! ~Thor~

07-23-2001, 01:23 AM	#6
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Death Head Oh yea, also known as the Totenkopf (Death head) Luger! ~Thor~

07-23-2001, 07:34 AM	#7
TomN Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Death Head Thanks Thor, I will look this one up. I guess this is the stuff that makes the Luger so dam insteresting.To bad so many people are profiting by faking them. It be great if there was some kind of data base that could be formed with known fakes and their serial numbers. I'm sure that more than one person has been burned by the same fake Luger being passed along. TomN

07-23-2001, 08:32 PM	#8
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Death Head Hello, Death Head Lugers are one of the most controversial Lugers around. To the best of my knowledge, no one actually knows what they stand for or even if they are real. All explanations are theory with no actual data to back them up. They are a very sought after Luger, and each collector has to decide if they think they are for real, or just cute. I think the stuff about the SS is total bull-****, but who knows. I have seen a death head with lightning bolts on a byf 41 barrel, which I thought was a fake, but it is in a very large, well known collection. My feelings are that there probably is a few real Death Head Lugers around, but probably more fakes than real ones. My understanding is that these dies have been in Germany for many years and they have been in the United States now for at least 15 years. I would guess that the real Death Heads saw lots of use and action and they should not be in very good condition. A lot of the ones I see for sale are in excellent condition, which makes me wonder. For what it's worth.

07-23-2001, 09:15 PM	#9
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Re: Death Head I second Bills assessment on the Death head P.08's....when I started collecting 20 years ago or more...these pistols would surface from time to time. I remember that most of them were described as rough condition, mismatch, and reworked...sometimes crudely! They usually were nothing special as to variation, typical WW1 pistols as I remember....till...later...G.T.

07-23-2001, 09:28 PM	#10
Art Buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	Restored Lugers-Fakes-enhanced conditon In recent years I read frequently the disccusion and bitching about Fakes and Restored lugers being represented as original. Then the advice to buy only from reputable dealer which seems to be synomous with Big well known dealers. After 40 years collecting I am convinced that most of them have sold the afore mentioned merchandise. I think they know it. They may or may not now the origin of the so called enhancment. I'm fairly certain that in some cases they are a party to such work. These so called reputable dealers are like used car salesman---each has his style---but all let you sell yourself. Sure greed allows them to do this--theirs and ours. I believe with out exception; Lugers bought sight unseen can be returned within reasonable time. Those bought in person after our person exam and evaluation are ours to keep or palm off on someone else. All of us and especially the big names with money to travel the major shows; look for the old vet to come in with a rare Luger that we can buy for a song and sell for thousands---and then brag about it. Don't pay attenton to the tag or the ad. Words such as Near mint,Hard to find, Deep eagle are catch phrases just like used cars--sharp! one owner--Low miles! Learn to look past this ask questions of the dealer and yourself. Does the barrel have a hole in it, does it have rifleing in it. is it bright. Numbers match--are they all the same style and appropriate to the model. Ask all the quetions before you order. Ask yourself these same questions when you examine it. Make sure in your own mind that it truely is what it should be not what you want it to be. Don't pay attention to the sales pitch---very few sales people are primarily interested in doing you a favor---they want the $s. Certainly Luger deals between truly close friends[I believe ]are an exception to this. The guys in Auto Mag continually worry about fakes etc and spend a lot of words in writing about the subject. If you don't know what you are buying--don't buy it. My father collected coins. I have some interest. 40 years ago I was in a shop with him looking at a coin with a condition note and price. Dad said "don't pay any attention to the tag indicated conditon, you decide what condition you think it is, then is the price appropriate to your evaluation of condition" I have used this advice in buying Lugers for 40 years. So you bought a fake Death Head--If you only paid a $500 shooter price--what is the problem. I wonder--have I stired up more comment than if I again said stainless steel?

07-23-2001, 09:57 PM	#11
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I don't think so I think you made some really good points, similar points in fact to the two posters above you. It always comes down to how much do you know what you are buying? Caveat Emptor is always applicable!

07-24-2001, 12:04 AM	#12
Jesse User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW VA Posts: 103 Thanks: 6 Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts	Death Head Luger OK I guess I will come out of the shadows on this one so far on my journey looking for the city of gold (A.K.A the Death Head Luger) I have found 4 death Head Lugers and one Death Head PPK. 2 of the DH's were very questionable and one was not for sale (the same collector had the DH PPK) and one was all most mine but the seller (one of the big Luger Dealer's) first give me the price of $1800 and then when I was going to send the payment the price jumped to $2400 needless to say it went out of my cash limit at the time. I was told I could pay the rest later but I was a bit upset at the price jump and did not get the Luger. If I had it to do over I would have got it but alas my quest continues.

07-24-2001, 03:05 AM	#13
Bill S. Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Restored Lugers-Fakes-enhanced conditon Some of the best known dealers have tried to pass off on me restored or refinished Lugers as original when I knew they knew or should have known the status of the piece. Most of the big dealers are collectors as well and generally keep the best for themselves. The problem is that everyone wants mint or close to mint and there are not enough mint guns around to satisfy demand..hence the restorations. I suggest thst an inexperienced collector handle as many Lugers as possible of all vintages paying special attention to guns of KNOWN original provenance so as to develop a feel for what is original. This feel can only be developed by handling numerous examples, so go to every show and handle every Luger in sight. You will start to see similarities in wear patterns on blue and straw colors so you will soon recognixe what is original and what is not. Ask different "experts" about the same gun and compare their answers. Soon you will know who the bullslingers are and who can be trusted. Once when I was examining a prototype, offered to me by a well known dealer, that I suspected was refinished, I compared the frame serial number stampings under strong magnification to the numbers of a know original example and discovered that the subject prototype numbers had been deepened by an engraving tool and were not stamped as was the original. The numbers had become shallow because of the polishing needed for refinishing. When spending your hard earned dollars, look very carefully. Happy hunting, Bill S. (ALFA2NINE)

07-24-2001, 07:28 AM	#14
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger It would be interesting to know who that dealer was... this type on information should be shared for the benefit of all. Feel free to message me offline. Dok (Webmaster)

07-24-2001, 10:01 AM	#15
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Dok! I do not agree! Hi Dok! I do not agree with the posting of any dealers name when it comes from a disgruntled customer.......We are not Luger cops, or watch dogs for justice on this forum...There are many extenuating circumstances when it comes to buying collectibles......I believe that most all dealers will sell you anything you will buy....I have said it several times on this forum, the only guarantee you have for success, is the knowledge that you bring with you to the sale! With out a fair exchange on the matter, irreversible harm can be done to a dealers reputation, only to find out that he was correct later, when nobody cares anymore. I am not in support of fakes or fraud, but also, I'm not in support of lynching! NAPCA seems to be handling the fraud alert quite well, lets stay out of that and keep it simple.....till...later....G.T.

07-24-2001, 10:38 AM	#16
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Dok! I do not agree! That seems reasonable to me. I withdraw my earlier statement.

07-24-2001, 10:40 AM	#17
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dok! I do not agree! Hi Dok, GT, Well, I look at this a little different than you do GT. Everyday on the Forum someone gives out names of dealers who to buy from and represent them as the most honest and honorable gun dealers in the world. If we are going to get the "best guy story", then we should get the "bad guy story" also. When all the smoke is clear, this is all about money and who has the pride and dignity to do the right thing. The guys giving out the "best guy story" have apparently had good dealing, but not everyone has. There are good and bad stories to everyone.

07-24-2001, 12:43 PM	#18
renaissance User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dok! I do not agree! Hear Hear! There are two sides to EVERY story, and we NEED to hear them. DOK: I would suggest that: Each Side (That is the INDIVIDUALS involved) in the specific transaction in dispute; Be allowed to present THEIR sides of the story. BUT That other members of the forum NOT be allowed to participate in the discussion ON LINE. That way everyone in the forum would be allowed to judge the merits of the dispute, and make decisions based on knowledge (as presented by the litigants) {no-I aint a Lawyer} WITHOUT Turning it into a Witch Hunt. Sorry to have to suggest adding another cross for you to bear in your trials as Webmaster. doc It ain't easy having to try to be a Solomon.

07-24-2001, 01:11 PM	#19
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Dok! I do not agree! We certainly don't need to be a police state here, but bill m and renaissance make valid points, and it was my original thought that we need the good and the bad info, however I'm not clear at this point that the vendor was a vendor supported by this forum (in which case I would have more of a vested interest). I think this is really up to Jesse, and whether he feels it is information he wishes to share with the group. G. T. may have a point also in that there may well have been a valid reason for the price change that was not illucidated in Jesse's post. For now I choose to leave it in Jesse's hands to post more info if he chooses to. If he does I will se that that info is disseminated, and if he chooses not to, then that is the end of it. Dok

07-24-2001, 01:30 PM	#20
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Another Opinion Dok, I still feel like a newbie here and am somewhat reluctant to express an opinion on some things, but this question is not a Luger question; it is a question of allowing members to state their concerns about a product or dealer. As long as these expressions are made in a fair and reasonable manner, the information and resulting comments can be helpful to all forum members. I also participate in a woodworking forum where both good and bad expeiences with a dealer or product are allowed and names are called. What often happens there is that someone will document a concern regarding a dealer or product and others on the forum will support with similar experiences with that dealer or product. Or, they will sometimes come back with a chorus-like response supporting the product or dealer, leading one to conclude that the original complaint was either incorrect or just a fluke. Allowing free expression about dealers and products has not seemed to have any detrimental effect on the woodworking forum. Just my $.02, Hope I haven't offended anyone.