OT - cleaning bores of target pistols

[Thor]

WATCH out! Frank is looking for a minty 42 byf, you guys will be in competition AGAIN! lol Glad you are enjoying it, tried to find mine and couldnt, may have to get another copy for me! The price is really low for the great book! Grips can be a whole study themselves as Marvin can tell you! Thor

[John Sabato]

Wood no matter how hard is porous and will become contaminated with bore debris, and eventually become abrasive. Relegate wood cleaning rods to shotguns ONLY.


The best cleaning rods are one-piece and are made of either highly polished steel or stainless steel, or smooth surfaced fiberglass.


Jointed cleaning rods can easily damage the muzzle when the breaks between the sections hit the crown.


the best way to clean in my experience is to pull to the muzzle only once. take the brush off, insert the cleaning rod, then re-attach the brush or patch holding device and pull out.


This is only for target barrels of course and does not apply to combat situations where multiple piece cleaning rods are necessary for transport under those conditions. This is just combat expediency, not best practice for accuracy.


-my $0.02 - John

[John D.]

(PSSSSTTT - don't tell DOK I'm really replying to your post about the books - I think we can sneak this one by him..!!!


I read slowly anyway, and for subjects that interest me, I usually jot down facts/notes I think I'll need in a notebook. Learning about Kriegs helped me understand the value of doing that. Also, again for Kriegs - as folks contact me about theirs, I'll make notes as to variations they have (which are documented) and specific markings. I also share with them privately, if they are a collector, what I have. In this way there is a "trail" to keep track of these pieces in the future and document their authenticity.


When I understand more about P 38s, I suspect I'll do the same thing. I can't wait to see these books that Tom will be sending - they ought to arrive about the time I'm done studying the book Ted sent me..!!)


WARNING - Luger content follows!!!!


For WW2 production black grips - does anyone know if they used some kind of fiberous material as part of the "filler"? It looks to be a "white-ish" type of filler embedded in the grap material itself??

[Marvin]

John,


I have never noticed any "filler" in the WWII black Luger grips, but that is not to say it did not happen; just my observation so far. I had thought that the material was a thermoplastic (injection molded), but I have read that they are a phenolic material (compression molded). They seen to stand up to abuse better than some of the material.


The worst plastic material used on grips was by Sauer & Sohn on the 38H pistol. They tend to shrink over the years and become very brittle. According to Jim Cate, the 38H expert, the grips would have been great if some type filler had been used in them.


A couple of years ago, I began a little investigation into the marking on the inside of P.38 grips. Although I don't have enough information to make a qualifying statement, i think the marking can be used to "date" the grips for a certain time frame of manufacture for a P.38. If Warren Buxton can ever complete the 4th vol of the P.38 set, he is supposed to provide details on these marking. I have sent the information collected so far on the grip markings to the collective group who is assisting Mr. Buxton so maybe one day we will see this information in print.


Marvin

[John D.]

[Patrick]

Dok - I�´ve been trying to send two technical drawings of the official wooden Holzwischstock and chamber Reinigungsstock for use in barracks. #*#* knows what I�´ve been doing wrong - but it comes out as a broken symbol. I�´ve never yet seen one but they should be collectors�´ items par excellence. How about someone at least making copies? Patrick

I clean my '73 Ruger Mark I after every range session. I wish all my guns shot as acturately. And I must have put 20,000 rds through it by now. This Month's American Rifleman has an excellent article on rifle cleaning; much of which applies to pistols. The big debate among rifle shooters is whether to use a steel or plastic coated rod and the importance of a muzzle guide.

[John Sabato]

John & Marvin,


I'm no plastics expert, but I believe that this older generation of plastic probably doesn't contain any fiberous material. Plastics were a relatively new material during this time period, and I think the grips are really a very close relative to bakelite like old radio cabinets.


I think the white that John D. is seeing is the result of abuse (intentional or othewise) that changes the appearance and lightens the color is due to abrasion. Similar to what you would see if you accidentally scratched a new car. resurfacing by waxing or polymers might reduce the abrasion, but it will never be as black (or as dense a color, what ever color they are) as they were originally unless you can get below the damage before resurfacing.


just another of my $0.02


-JS

[Thor]

These Strengthed the grips I am told, really nice mottled pattern. These are off a 43 byf. Thor




http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/gripfibers.jpg

[Hugh]

John's grips definitely have some type of grey fibrous material as part of the grip composition. He sent these to me to see if I could freshen up the checkering on them. When I started checkering them, this grey "fuzzy" material started coming up. It looks like asbestos or very fine cotton fibers.

[Dok]

[BILL]

Prior to the 'new' forum format, there was an extensive technical post regarding the manufacturing process of the 'impregnated' plastic grips from the WWII era. I am not sure exactly what it was, but it seems that someone explained a 'resin fiber' was heat impregnated into the grip to give it more strength and allow it to be machined. One would hope that it isn't asbestos, but proper protective equipment should be standard shop practice. Abestos particles require a certain size filter since the particle size is pretty small.

[ViggoG]

A few cents worth on my own observations .


As many before have stated the bore is the most damaged portion of the rifling .

This mostly brought about by scrubbing the rod to the side as the rod is forced through the bore.

This damage will take place at either end of the bore equally, always with damage to accuracy of fire.


In addition the chamber end of the bore is exposed to driving the abrasive powder and

or residue through at very high tempratures and pressures.


Temp. and Pres. being physically inseparable in as much as temp. and pres. are directly related to each other .

Any increase in pres. causes an exact rise in temp.


Therefor 14.7 psi @ 20 deg. centigrade when raised to 15,052 psi results in 20,480 deg. cent.

and this is the temp of the abrasive particles mentioned above .

Even for the short period of time a hellish way to treat your baby and this you do each time you fire it .


This abrasive action is called bore erosion and is probably the most active cause of bore degrading other than rust and corrosion.


Any object that can become contaminated with any abrasive will cause some damage regardless of hardness of the carrier however the softer the carrier the less force that can be transferred to the abrasive to damage the bore and

or rifling.


These facts almost decree the use of bore snakes.


ViggoG

[BILL]

(super fine picture, I must say)

[ViggoG]

Seems to have patterns that resemble Particle Board,

could be wood chips from some wood production facility, excellent for reinforcement, cheep and plentiful,

even in a war poor economy .

Thats my best guess .

ViggoG