OT - cleaning bores of target pistols

As of 2 days ago, I'm the proud owner of a 60's vintage Model 41 S&W .22 target pistol. I was looking for something to shoot occasionally that would use cheaper ammo than 9mm, and I fell in love with this gun. It had been used by a competion shooter (custom grips, etc.) and the action was really dirty, but the bores (5.5 in. barrel and 7.5 in. barrel), were mint. The gun shop owner swore up and down that the owner had probably never cleaned the bores because, "after it got to where it was hitting 10, he didn't clean it." He said, even after I had already bought the gun, that competition shooters didn't clean bores because it would deteriorate accuracy. I'm not a target shooter, but this seems contrary to everthing I know & have been taught. Has anyone ever heard this before? (By the way, both barrels shoot great) Thanks.

Don, this brings up a topic I've been going to propose to the "experts" on this board. I read (a long time ago) that most rifle bores were "cleaned" out, not shot out.


The article stated that high power rifle bores were good for about 2000 rounds but were seldom ever fired any where near that many times. It went on to say that cleaning the bore was more the cause of wear than shooting it.


From experience, I had an MP40 that I ran approx. 5000 rounds thru and it showed no visible signs of wear. Not to mention the fact that it was made in 1943 and probably had a lot more rounds run through it before I got it!


That's why, when some one says a Luger has a shot out bore I feel it would be more accurate to say it was "cleaned" to death. I just can't imagine ever shooting one enough times to wear out the bore - if 5000+ rounds didn't hurt the barrel of an MP40.


So your question, or more to the point, what you were told may have some credibility, but I'd like to hear what some of this group thinks. How about RickW, Frank, JohnD, Thor and the rest of you longtime shooters, what do you think?

[Frank]

Over the years I have shot small bore, large bore and pistols and to the best of my knowledge have never shot out a bore or cleaned one to death. I have a pre 64 Winchester Model 70, in 30-06 that I have shot several thousand rounds through and it still shoots great. I also shot that many through a Colt Police Positive and it was good to go when I sold it. I always cleaned them after each session.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

I can't at all agree with this.

If we starts from the beginning, as I was a Highpower shooter before.


The barrels we had normally lasted for 5-8000 rounds, and the was in 6,5x55.

I have never heard of any that have cleaned the barrel to death.


5000 rounds in a 9x19 barrel hardly gives much of wear signs more than the fact that the lands got a bit rounded.

I belive a good 9x19 barrel at least have a barrellife of 30000 rounds.


I have seen numerous of lugerbarrels worn out, and its clear that they are worn out.

The are not mirror pollish inside but pitted and looks like blasted inside.


When it comes to .22 pistols many of the older says that there is something wrong with the gun if you have to clean it. I belive this is all just old bull**** and more due to the fact they had a gun that would funtion reliable dirty and they are lazy.


I don't clean my lugerbarrels inside tough i am not using any corrosive ammo or leadbullets.

But that is just cause i see no reason to doing so.


But a .22 cal barrel on a automaic gun have to be cleaned every now and then because of the wax inside it, espisally the chamber area is important.

Not due to accuracy as to reliability.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr





http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[BILL]

Well, I have found that after so many rounds of .22 rimfire the pistols will cease functioning. When a pistol stops shooting, the accuracy jumps in the proverbial handbasket real quick. Maybe the guy who owned the S&W got rid of his pistol once he got it into the ten ring..then sold it without cleaning it. I would clean it.

[Wombat]

I've never shot out a 'bore' before. But, here's some possible REASONS why Lugers, and other various guns get bad-bores, thin-rifling, etc:


-Past use of Corrosive ammo

-Used Corrosive ammo, and not cleaned while in a Humid Climate

-Steel jacketed Bullets (Russian, or other surplus)

-Other effects....?


I know if you leave a corrosive shot casing out overnight in a Humid Climate, it'll turn steel around it into instant rust. (or something like that).


Cleaning a bore to death with a brass-brush may affect the bore to a certain degree.


I have a Remington 51 (old gun) autoloader pistol, and it had a smoothed out bore on it. It had also never been 'really cleaned' before. I took a brass-brush to it, and lots of solvent. After about 10 minutes of cleaning, and recleaning the bore, I picked up TONS of black residue. Residue built up over 50 years. After a good-cleaning, the bore was minty again, and the Rifling strong. Oiled up of course too.

[Thor]

I have been told to clean a 22 much less than a center fire, the residue and bullet grease go a long way to protecting it. I would clean mine once a year if used a lot. The lead bullet (except stingers) is much easier on the bore (friction wise) than copper gilding metal, I believe. I do think that copper and the moisture residue are not good for a barrle and the copper should be taken out within a couple of days to prevent a dissimilar metals battery type oxidation-reduction from setting up. All combustion produces water so the less of that left in the barrel the better. I do believe WWI ammo was more corrisive (I see less minty WWI original barrels than WWII ones) though a lot of 1920 Commercial 30 lugers have damn fine barrels. Thor

[Marvin]

Don,


I used to shoot a S&W Mod. 41 and it was the best .22 I have ever shot. I did always clean the action after each shooting to remove the loose powder residue and this was basically a good "wipe" type cleaning. I also run a brush with solvent once thru the bore and then follow up with a couple of patches and then a clean oil patch. I never had any problems, but I would always fire a few "fouling" shots before a match.


On my little .22 rifle I shoot occasionaly, I have one of the "Bore Snakes" for the .22 and it works great. I put a little oil on the snake, and pull it thru a couple fo times. This cleanes the bore and lubricates also.


My opinion on bore wear is that the cleaning rod itself may be the culprit for damaging bores and not the brushes and patches. This happens from not being careful when running the rod down the bore. Just a few of my opinons


Marvin

[DAVID]

I have found that most damage comes from the use of the cleaning rod. If at all possible the barrel should be cleaned from the rear. On my Garand, I use a muzzle protector or rod guide. I have seen early Springfields and Mauser with worn or groved muzzles from cleaning rod use.


Also I always use steel rods as they will not pickup grit and carry it into the barrel like aluminum or brass. My .02 cents. David.

[John D.]

Hi Don and all...


First - congrats on the purchase of the S&W .41..! I think you'll find it an excellent bullseye pistol - or even a "plinker".. I have and have owned 6 of these - and yes, I used to do a fair amount of small bore bullseye.


Anyway - it is not uncommon to find that a .22 used in bullseye rarely had its bore cleaned. Frankly, after a match - I would disassemble and wipe the rails, slide, around the ramps and breechface. HOwever - I don't think I ever ran anything through the bore itself. I was more afraid of wearing down the lands with aggressive cleaning then by shooting. At the range - you would also find those that did clean their bores would also have to fire fouling rounds to get them back in shape - so cleaning never made much sense - to me anyway...


However - on the S&W Model 52-1 and 52-2, I did clean the bore frequently - as the loads I used were a hotter .38 WC, and the barrel would get pretty bad after a while (lead). In that case - I fired a few jacketed rounds at the end of a session - and then used Hoppes cleaning solvent with a NYLON brush - and got out what I could. Again - these pistols remained extreamly accurate...


Finally - I also did some competition shooting with a Colt H-BAR (AR15) - culminating in an excellent finish at the Colt Cup several years ago. Since I used jacketed bullets and loaded my own rounds - I never ran a brush down that bore either. After 5,000 - 6,000 rounds, I never saw the need for more then an oil patch to clean out residue...


For .22 barrels - you can damage the bore crown with the handle of some cleaning rods (buy ones that have a plastic protector) - as well as purchase a rod which has a rubberized coating (Outers makes these)..


Hope this helps!!

[Marvin]

John,


You made some very good points with barrel cleaning. As to the cleaning rod, this is the reason I changed to the "Bore Snake", it does a reasonable job of cleaning the bore with no problems of a cleaning rod since it is made from a fiber material with one small section with cleaning brush imbedded.


marvin

[John D.]

Hi Marvin.!!


Yes - a "Bore Snake" make a lot of sense! - but have never seen one in my local shops (of course - I didnt know I was looking for one, either ). Do they make just one length and you cut it for either pistol or rifle, or are they sold in various lengths?


One additional thought I had for Don is that some folks will purchase the most "aggressive" cleaning product out there (SS brushes, metal bore patches, etc.). I would *strongly* caution against these products (unless you have a specific reason for using them). I would suggest using the *mildest* tool that gets the job done - and in the case of .22s - is frequently a simple oiled cotton patch (or what Marvin is describing as a "bore snake")..!!!


Thanks Marvin..!

[Johnny Peppers]

A .22 pistol does not leave the residue in a bore that a center fire weapon does. It will leave small amounts of lead and fouling from the powder and primer which should be cleaned. There is no such thing as wearing out a bore from proper cleaning. Bores have been damaged from improper cleaning, and probably the biggest culprit is the jointed cleaning rods. Buy a proper fitting one piece rod, and make a habit of wiping the rod each time it is to be inserted in the bore. Do not use the loop style patch holders. Use only the jag and let the patch fall off after it is pushed through the bore. Those that worry about ruining a bore by running a bronze brush down it should stop and consider the fact that the brush is traveling at maybe 2fps while a bullet is traveling at anywhere from 1000 up to 4000fps with an extremely hot fire under many thousands pounds of pressure. Benchrest shooters clean their bore religiously as they know that the build up of metal and carbon fouling affects accuracy to a large extent on a rifle that is expected to shoot tiny one hole groups.

Every year my local gunshop has several rifle in large magnum calibers brought in to be rebarreled as the rifle will no longer shoot good groups and the owner considers it "worn out". In virtually all cases the barrels are fouled terribly, and after several passes with JB bore paste, which is a mild abrasive, the rifles again shoot as they did when new.

[Marvin]

John,


I bought mine from Wal-Mart for approx. $14 each. They come already set-up for each caliber. I have one in .22 cal, .30 cal./8mm cal., .38 cal./9mm cal. and .45 cal. I think there may be a few others, but this takes care of me. Each one is approx 30-36" long for rifles and shrter for pistol only calibers. Brownells also sells them, but are a couple of dollars higher than Wal-Mart. They do a nice job of cleaning the bore, but I still prefer the old tried and true method when a full cleaning is required. Some of the benchrest shooters use the "Bore Snake" at their bench to clean the bores after approx 10 rounds.


I agree about the agressive cleaning solutions. Unless you have a specific need to use them; DON'T, they can ruin a nice barrel. I usually use Hoppe's #9 as a cleaner and then follow up with a Clenzoil patch to prevent rust and do a final wipe down of the entire firearm.


In addition to the chemicals used, there are several differnt type brushes on the market for agressive cleaning. If the bore is in good condition, use the standard bore brushes. If you will look at the original German brushes provided in the cleaning kits, they were bristle brushes and NOT bronze. These brushes provided the gentle cleaning a fine firearm needs without ANY possibility of damaging the bore. I have a new (1998) Oberndorf Mauser Sporting Rifle in .300 WN Magnum, and the factory manual recommended that ONLY a cleaning with the "Bore Snake" type cleaner be used. They also stated that the cleaning chemicals from "Petra" (I think) will not be used in the bore. So far, I follow Mauser's recomendation because I can shoot a 1/2" MOA with this rifle and the 3x9 Zeiss scope mounted on it.


Marvin

[Thor]

Always (where possible) clean from the breech end. I have seen a 7 mm mag ruined by cleaning excessively from the muzzle with not muzzle alingment control piece and the rifling was worn enough to make the bullet yaw off targer. After having the muzzle cut and recrowned it shot great again, but I am sure velocities were down taking off 1-2" of barrel with a magnum round. If you have to clean from the muzzle use a tool or better yet a plastic or softer rod (wiped clean of course) Revolvers, muzzle loaders, etc and some autos fall into this category! Thor

[Dok]

[John D.]

Fact - the cleaning rods that were my great-grandfathers are all made of wood...


BTW DOK - that P.38 book is EXCELLENT!!! I also ordered the THREE volumes from Tom... ANd NOPE - I'm *not* compulsive - just as Jen....

[Thor]

Wonder if the fouling metal would get impregnated into the wood rod? That might do some microscopic scratching of the bore with use? Just wondering? Thor

[Marvin]

John,


You made a wise move to buy the set of P.38 books. Before they were reprinted, I have seen the original set sell for $900-1200. The reprints will increase in value also since they are sold out. Once you get accustomed to the format you will be able to find the info you need quickly. Just be sure to read the instructions on how the books are layed-out so you can find the details of each pistol. Read slowely because the information is very technical in nature.


Marvin

[John D.]

(First of all (and OT!!!!) - I'm through Chapter 2..!!! I think I'm partial so far to "byf" coded production - but then I think I need an example from each of teh manufacturers)


Great comments - but I've never noticed and impregnation. I'm not sure what the wood is (I'm not a wood expert by any means!) - but it appears to be very hard, but not hard enough to be "brittle" if you know what I mean - as it does flex" a bit.. Also - the rods I have are for Rifles and shotguns for what looks like about a .30 caliber. I still use the one he had for shotguns.