Estimate on an inherited Luger

naidirem · 11-21-2005, 02:50 PM

I was wondering if I could find some more specific information on a Luger that belongs to my family. The executor will be having it appraised and I will have the opportunity to purchase it but I'd like some opinion of what I might be having to pay for it.

Based on some quick research, I have figured out (right or wrong) the following things:

It is stamped 'Germany' on top of the toggle.
It has the C/N stamp on it in two places (I think).
The safety is marked 'Gesichert'.
I believe it is chambered in .30 Luger since I tried to chamber 9mm rounds and the bullet would not fit although they loaded nicely in the magazine.
The gun is stamped 77xx in two places and have matching xx in other locations.
It came with a holster but the holster was made at a shop in Chicago in the 20s (I think).

The family story on this Luger and some ofther handguns is: My Great-grandfather ran a towing business in Chicago in the 1920s and 1930s. He and his workers would search vehicles they towed and cinfiscate any firearms found. This Luger was among them. The holster has the name Pat written on it and a date of Nov 13, 1926.

I am will try to include some pictures.

naidirem · 11-21-2005, 02:50 PM

Top view

naidirem · 11-21-2005, 02:51 PM

bottom view

John Sabato · 11-21-2005, 03:22 PM

Mark, this seems to be a very nice commercial Luger. I have never seen one with the Germany on the toggle in this manner. I hope one of the commercial collectors will chime in and tell what they know on this variation. I am physically separated by about 30 miles from my reference books at the moment...

While the commercial guns of this period are the least attractive to collectors because they are so common, I can tell you that IMHO I think the gun is worth at LEAST $700 based on condition alone and probably much much more.

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Ron Wood · 11-21-2005, 03:28 PM

Kind of a neat looking Luger! It appears to be a rather bizarre variation of a 1920 Commercial Luger. I suspect that there is a small letter suffix stamped below the serial number on the frame that is also part of the serial number (which appears to be 7771).

There are folks that will tell you that it is totally bogus because it does not fit any known examples, and it may be, but it is just goofy enough to make me believe that it might be OK. If you can get it for around $1000 or a little bit more, I will buy it from you with a couple of hundred bucks to boot for your trouble, so there is no risk.

naidirem · 11-21-2005, 03:35 PM

Ugh. The prices are not what I wanted to hear. Honestly the sentimental value of being fairly certain this gun would have been acquired by my Great-grandfather would trump any desire to sell it. I would rather have it on the cheap and frame it with the potential of shooting a box through every once in a while.

However as the time draws nearer, I will figure out if anyone in the family including myself will be getting it. Otherwise I can let people know when and if it becomes available since I'd rather it be in the hands of those who can appreciate it for what it is than someone who may be speculating.

naidirem · 11-21-2005, 03:37 PM

I meant to add this to my last reply:

Ron you are correct that the serial # is 7771. All the serial stamps match from what I can tell from the outside. I could not locate any serial on the magazine.

I listed the serial # with x's because everybody seems to do that. I hope I did not commit a faux pas.

John Sabato · 11-21-2005, 03:42 PM

No problem on the xx's -- some folks are wary of posting full serial numbers... but no one need fear doing that if you have a clear paper trail on ownership as it appears your family does...

Once again welcome... and if the lawyer insists on selling it, he wouldn't find a better price anywhere than this forum... we have over 3400 Luger enthusiast members worldwide...

George Anderson · 11-21-2005, 03:47 PM

Mark, no intention to hurt the family pride, but if your ancestor was just towing cars, he wasn't "confiscating" guns, he was stealing them.

I would love to hear how the "professional" appraises this gun. You have to keep a close eye on executors of estates.

Ron Wood · 11-21-2005, 03:48 PM

Mark,
You did not commit a faux pas. Listing firearms without the last two digits is a common practice for various reasons, some of which are legitimate. Don't give it a second thought. Good luck on whatever you decide to do (my offer is also legitimate!).

Edward Tinker · 11-21-2005, 04:01 PM

Geo, unless the guns were consficated via the area where this was "accepted". Water under the bridge, don't sell it to Ron, I'll take it...

Seriously, what an odd marking on the toggle. I have to guess that instead of the frame, the "blank" toggle was stamped...

Ed

naidirem · 11-21-2005, 04:17 PM

George-

You are more than correct that I tend to use the term 'confiscate' liberally. I imagine tow truck drivers in the 1920s got away with a lot more than they may be allowed to today. Then again 1920s Chicago was full of all sorts of seedy characters 'packin heat'.

George Anderson · 11-21-2005, 05:26 PM

Mark, the years have done little to change the basic practice. I left Germany in 1973 with a brand spanking new VW Square back. Five years later it was "totaled" by some guy. When the car was delivered to the body shop, the Blaupunkt was gone.

Dwight Gruber · 11-21-2005, 07:22 PM

There was a commercial Luger with the toggle marked this way at a gun show in Portland last year.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 11-22-2005, 09:51 AM

Mark, I have a similar "Germany" marked toggle in my parts inventory (S/N 10). I suspect this was BKIW assembled from left over DWM parts in the late 1920s, in the period between DWM halt of luger production and Mauser taking over in 1930. TH,

Ron Wood · 11-22-2005, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Ugh. The prices are not what I wanted to hear.

Too high? Too low?

John Sabato · 11-22-2005, 12:52 PM

Since he is interested in owning the gun, I suspect the value was way higher than he had hoped...

naidirem · 11-22-2005, 03:03 PM

You are ocrrect, sir. I had hoped the luger would not cost too much so I would feel more comfortable about keeping it as an heirloom.

George Anderson · 11-22-2005, 03:41 PM

Mark, that being the case, make sure that the appraiser identifies the pistol as a post WWI import. The common Post War import (not marked "SAFE" or "LOADED") is only worth about $500. In it's own right this pistol is not common, but that may just slide by the executor's "expert".

Good luck, it's a shame to see some xxxx-head force the sale of an heirloom outside the family.

zinzan · 11-30-2005, 12:36 AM

Beautiful Pistol. I hope it doesn't have the same problem mine has.

Timothy
N.B. you can find me in the "new guy section"

11-21-2005, 02:50 PM	#1
naidirem User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Springfield, Illinois, USA Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Estimate on an inherited Luger I was wondering if I could find some more specific information on a Luger that belongs to my family. The executor will be having it appraised and I will have the opportunity to purchase it but I'd like some opinion of what I might be having to pay for it. Based on some quick research, I have figured out (right or wrong) the following things: It is stamped 'Germany' on top of the toggle. It has the C/N stamp on it in two places (I think). The safety is marked 'Gesichert'. I believe it is chambered in .30 Luger since I tried to chamber 9mm rounds and the bullet would not fit although they loaded nicely in the magazine. The gun is stamped 77xx in two places and have matching xx in other locations. It came with a holster but the holster was made at a shop in Chicago in the 20s (I think). The family story on this Luger and some ofther handguns is: My Great-grandfather ran a towing business in Chicago in the 1920s and 1930s. He and his workers would search vehicles they towed and cinfiscate any firearms found. This Luger was among them. The holster has the name Pat written on it and a date of Nov 13, 1926. I am will try to include some pictures. Attached Thumbnails

11-21-2005, 02:50 PM	#2
naidirem User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Springfield, Illinois, USA Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	top photo Top view Attached Thumbnails

11-21-2005, 02:51 PM	#3
naidirem User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Springfield, Illinois, USA Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	bottom view bottom view Attached Thumbnails

11-21-2005, 03:22 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Mark, this seems to be a very nice commercial Luger. I have never seen one with the Germany on the toggle in this manner. I hope one of the commercial collectors will chime in and tell what they know on this variation. I am physically separated by about 30 miles from my reference books at the moment... While the commercial guns of this period are the least attractive to collectors because they are so common, I can tell you that IMHO I think the gun is worth at LEAST $700 based on condition alone and probably much much more. Welcome to the Lugerforum. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-21-2005, 03:28 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Kind of a neat looking Luger! It appears to be a rather bizarre variation of a 1920 Commercial Luger. I suspect that there is a small letter suffix stamped below the serial number on the frame that is also part of the serial number (which appears to be 7771). There are folks that will tell you that it is totally bogus because it does not fit any known examples, and it may be, but it is just goofy enough to make me believe that it might be OK. If you can get it for around $1000 or a little bit more, I will buy it from you with a couple of hundred bucks to boot for your trouble, so there is no risk. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-21-2005, 03:35 PM	#6
naidirem User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Springfield, Illinois, USA Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ugh. The prices are not what I wanted to hear. Honestly the sentimental value of being fairly certain this gun would have been acquired by my Great-grandfather would trump any desire to sell it. I would rather have it on the cheap and frame it with the potential of shooting a box through every once in a while. However as the time draws nearer, I will figure out if anyone in the family including myself will be getting it. Otherwise I can let people know when and if it becomes available since I'd rather it be in the hands of those who can appreciate it for what it is than someone who may be speculating.

11-21-2005, 03:37 PM	#7
naidirem User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Springfield, Illinois, USA Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I meant to add this to my last reply: Ron you are correct that the serial # is 7771. All the serial stamps match from what I can tell from the outside. I could not locate any serial on the magazine. I listed the serial # with x's because everybody seems to do that. I hope I did not commit a faux pas.

11-21-2005, 03:42 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	No problem on the xx's -- some folks are wary of posting full serial numbers... but no one need fear doing that if you have a clear paper trail on ownership as it appears your family does... Once again welcome... and if the lawyer insists on selling it, he wouldn't find a better price anywhere than this forum... we have over 3400 Luger enthusiast members worldwide... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-21-2005, 03:47 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Mark, no intention to hurt the family pride, but if your ancestor was just towing cars, he wasn't "confiscating" guns, he was stealing them. I would love to hear how the "professional" appraises this gun. You have to keep a close eye on executors of estates.

11-21-2005, 03:48 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Mark, You did not commit a faux pas. Listing firearms without the last two digits is a common practice for various reasons, some of which are legitimate. Don't give it a second thought. Good luck on whatever you decide to do (my offer is also legitimate!). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-21-2005, 04:01 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Geo, unless the guns were consficated via the area where this was "accepted". Water under the bridge, don't sell it to Ron, I'll take it... Seriously, what an odd marking on the toggle. I have to guess that instead of the frame, the "blank" toggle was stamped... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-21-2005, 04:17 PM	#12
naidirem User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Springfield, Illinois, USA Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	George- You are more than correct that I tend to use the term 'confiscate' liberally. I imagine tow truck drivers in the 1920s got away with a lot more than they may be allowed to today. Then again 1920s Chicago was full of all sorts of seedy characters 'packin heat'.

11-21-2005, 05:26 PM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Mark, the years have done little to change the basic practice. I left Germany in 1973 with a brand spanking new VW Square back. Five years later it was "totaled" by some guy. When the car was delivered to the body shop, the Blaupunkt was gone.

11-21-2005, 07:22 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	There was a commercial Luger with the toggle marked this way at a gun show in Portland last year. --Dwight

11-22-2005, 09:51 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Mark, I have a similar "Germany" marked toggle in my parts inventory (S/N 10). I suspect this was BKIW assembled from left over DWM parts in the late 1920s, in the period between DWM halt of luger production and Mauser taking over in 1930. TH, __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-22-2005, 12:52 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Since he is interested in owning the gun, I suspect the value was way higher than he had hoped... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-22-2005, 03:03 PM	#18
naidirem User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Springfield, Illinois, USA Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You are ocrrect, sir. I had hoped the luger would not cost too much so I would feel more comfortable about keeping it as an heirloom.

11-22-2005, 03:41 PM	#19
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Mark, that being the case, make sure that the appraiser identifies the pistol as a post WWI import. The common Post War import (not marked "SAFE" or "LOADED") is only worth about $500. In it's own right this pistol is not common, but that may just slide by the executor's "expert". Good luck, it's a shame to see some xxxx-head force the sale of an heirloom outside the family.

11-30-2005, 12:36 AM	#20
zinzan User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Saint Louis Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Beautiful Pistol. I hope it doesn't have the same problem mine has. Timothy N.B. you can find me in the "new guy section"