Crown Over Something

Michael Zeleny · 07-29-2016, 04:54 AM

This 1915 DWM LP08 serial number 1162a has stumped me with its leftmost proof mark:

The barrel features British pressure test markings on the bottom. High resolution photos can be seen and downloaded here:
https://goo.gl/photos/c4w4RkMdndDecac17

I would be very grateful for your learned instruction.

John Sabato · 07-29-2016, 09:02 AM

Hi Michael. Nice Artillery. Unfortunately I can't see web storage sites as the one where you posted the Hi-Res photos because I am behind a firewall that prohibits access to those sights. Did you try to post them on Lugerforum.com using the "manage attachments" feature?

If that failed, how about cropping one of the Hi-Res photos and limit the photo to the area where the stamps you are inquiring about. That should not be an issue to post...

Thanks. -John

Karl · 07-29-2016, 09:02 AM

Micheal,

It is difficult to see clearly without a detail photo but it looks like the London proof house crown-CP final proof.
KFS

Michael Zeleny · 07-29-2016, 11:21 AM

Thank you, gentlemen. I’ll crack out my macro lens and see how much detail I can capture in a reshoot over the weekend.

Vlim · 07-29-2016, 02:02 PM

Hard to see. But it looks like a Belgian Liege proof.

Karl · 07-29-2016, 06:22 PM

Michael,

The proof mark I cited above looks like this.
KFS

Ron Wood · 07-29-2016, 07:50 PM

Karl,
That is what it looks like to me also. I tried to grab an image to enlarge but there is something about that web page that precludes it. Maybe someone else will be more successful (Michael's added photos will probably do the trick). In the meantime I agree that it is most likely a London proof. If it is I would expect that there is a "..tons.." pressure proof marking on the barrel and a "Not English Make" marking somewhere.
Ron

Whoops....I should have read the initial post more carefully. Michael already said there is a pressure test marking on the barrel.

Mark1 · 07-29-2016, 08:40 PM

Hi Michael,
I am fairly certain this is the crown/GP mark of the London Proof House from 1925. If a pressure mark is also present this, in addition, indicates post 1954.
Very nice pistol.
Mark

Lugerdoc · 07-30-2016, 09:30 AM

It's my understanding that British law required all non-British made guns to go through one of the British proof houses if For Sale in GB. TH

sheepherder · 07-30-2016, 11:31 AM

I find it curious that the English would stamp a proof mark alongside, scaled, and aligned with the German proofs. They were meticulous enough to stamp the pressure test proof on the bottom of the barrel, why not leave the C/CP proof there as well???

Or is this another example of the inscrutable English mind???

DonVoigt · 07-30-2016, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I find it curious that the English would stamp a proof mark alongside, scaled, and aligned with the German proofs. They were meticulous enough to stamp the pressure test proof on the bottom of the barrel, why not leave the C/CP proof there as well???

Or is this another example of the inscrutable English mind???

Because they have "rules"

, the pressure/view proof is on the receiver and most times also on the barrel; I think it similar to the German system of the pressure bearing pieces being "proofed" and marked. The Belgians stamp several places on the lugers proofed there-barrel, receiver, toggle are those I remember.

Vlim · 07-30-2016, 12:14 PM

The gun proofing business has long been a cartel operated business, where proofing had to be paid for. So it was mostly a business decision to proof something, not logic.

Dwight Gruber · 07-31-2016, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I find it curious that the English would stamp a proof mark alongside, scaled, and aligned with the German proofs. They were meticulous enough to stamp the pressure test proof on the bottom of the barrel, why not leave the C/CP proof there as well???

Or is this another example of the inscrutable English mind???

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Because they have "rules"

, the pressure/view proof is on the receiver and most times also on the barrel; I think it similar to the German system of the pressure bearing pieces being "proofed" and marked. The Belgians stamp several places on the lugers proofed there-barrel, receiver, toggle are those I remember.

The principles of firearms proofing go back to 17th century England. The British proof laws of 1855 and 1868 are considered to be the basis for modern British proof law.

The draft of the first comprehensive German proof law, drafted in 1890 and passes in 1891, was based in large part (and considerable detail) on the earlier British proof laws.

--Dwight

LU1900 · 08-02-2016, 07:26 PM

The max I could do with my little PC
/

07-29-2016, 04:54 AM	#1
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Crown Over Something This 1915 DWM LP08 serial number 1162a has stumped me with its leftmost proof mark: The barrel features British pressure test markings on the bottom. High resolution photos can be seen and downloaded here: https://goo.gl/photos/c4w4RkMdndDecac17 I would be very grateful for your learned instruction. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

07-29-2016, 11:21 AM	#4
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Thank you, gentlemen. I’ll crack out my macro lens and see how much detail I can capture in a reshoot over the weekend. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

07-29-2016, 06:22 PM	#6
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 520 Thanks: 0 Thanked 266 Times in 116 Posts	Michael, The proof mark I cited above looks like this. KFS Attached Images

07-29-2016, 07:50 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	Karl, That is what it looks like to me also. I tried to grab an image to enlarge but there is something about that web page that precludes it. Maybe someone else will be more successful (Michael's added photos will probably do the trick). In the meantime I agree that it is most likely a London proof. If it is I would expect that there is a "..tons.." pressure proof marking on the barrel and a "Not English Make" marking somewhere. Ron Whoops....I should have read the initial post more carefully. Michael already said there is a pressure test marking on the barrel. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 07-29-2016 at 09:22 PM.

07-30-2016, 09:30 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	It's my understanding that British law required all non-British made guns to go through one of the British proof houses if For Sale in GB. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-29-2016, 09:02 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Hi Michael. Nice Artillery. Unfortunately I can't see web storage sites as the one where you posted the Hi-Res photos because I am behind a firewall that prohibits access to those sights. Did you try to post them on Lugerforum.com using the "manage attachments" feature? If that failed, how about cropping one of the Hi-Res photos and limit the photo to the area where the stamps you are inquiring about. That should not be an issue to post... Thanks. -John

07-29-2016, 02:02 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hard to see. But it looks like a Belgian Liege proof.

07-29-2016, 08:40 PM	#8
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	Hi Michael, I am fairly certain this is the crown/GP mark of the London Proof House from 1925. If a pressure mark is also present this, in addition, indicates post 1954. Very nice pistol. Mark

07-30-2016, 11:31 AM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	I find it curious that the English would stamp a proof mark alongside, scaled, and aligned with the German proofs. They were meticulous enough to stamp the pressure test proof on the bottom of the barrel, why not leave the C/CP proof there as well??? Or is this another example of the inscrutable English mind??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

07-30-2016, 12:14 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The gun proofing business has long been a cartel operated business, where proofing had to be paid for. So it was mostly a business decision to proof something, not logic.

08-02-2016, 07:26 PM	#14
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 41 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	The max I could do with my little PC / Attached Thumbnails __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/