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Unread 05-27-2019, 03:01 PM   #1
midwestern31
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Default BYF 41 Frame

I got a new luger last weekend, a BYF 41 with a very good condition receiver with all parts matching. The frame and grips have a good amount of pitting but have been re-blued, and while the same number is stamped on the frame, the original number on the frame is stamped out with big XXX marks. I don't know whether the frame was replaced during wartime or someone found another one within the last 80 years and replaced it. I paid around $850 for it which I thought was a good deal.

I'd like to get another frame for it to match the receiver in terms of quality and looks.

Any idea of the price range of just a frame? I can't find any of them online. I'd trade someone if it's possible, but I'd like to keep this one for a backup.

Also there is no import markings on any part of the gun.

The pitting is deep enough that I might lose the lettering if I were to sand it and redo it, and I'd rather just keep it as it was.

Any ideas?
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Unread 05-27-2019, 03:29 PM   #2
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Welcome to the forum. While restoration is an expensive potential option, finding a replacement frame may be the way to go - but - realize that in either the case you keep the original frame or replace it it won't become collectible.

It may be possible to guess on when the frame was replaced if we can get a look, but it's likely it was an armory replacement either during the war, or as part of a Russian Capture / East German rework effort.

Most others would not bother to "X" out things.

If it's mechanically functional, I'd leave it as is. These are hand fit firearms, and it will take some work to properly fit a replacement frame, side plate, firing pin etc...
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Unread 05-27-2019, 03:49 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrerick View Post
Welcome to the forum. While restoration is an expensive potential option, finding a replacement frame may be the way to go - but - realize that in either the case you keep the original frame or replace it it won't become collectible.
I don't intend to sell anytime soon so making it a collectible is not something I care much about. My biggest issue is that the takedown pin is so tight against the frame that it is unable to turn, I have to use a brass punch to turn it because it's right up against it, even oiling it has not changed anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrerick View Post
It may be possible to guess on when the frame was replaced if we can get a look, but it's likely it was an armory replacement either during the war, or as part of a Russian Capture / East German rework effort.

Most others would not bother to "X" out things.
What parts of the frame would help most? I am more than happy to take pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrerick View Post
If it's mechanically functional, I'd leave it as is. These are hand fit firearms, and it will take some work to properly fit a replacement frame, side plate, firing pin etc...
I was worried that might be the case, I guess at the very least the gun has some history behind it.
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Unread 05-27-2019, 04:06 PM   #4
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You can find frames every now and then, a friend got a collection and I bought several frames form him. They seem to come along on the forums infrequently, but a bit more often on gunbroker. A frame by itself has to go to a FFL 01 (dealer).

AND, the number would never be the same plus to get period correct you'd need a mauser hump style frame, most do not have the hump (yrs prior to whatever year it is - see FAQ).

And keeping a frame as a spare - I have never broken a frame But you could build another shooter, but then how is that different. An extra upper (slide) makes more sense, say, have one made in 7.65 or in a 9mm 6 inch barrel and swap it on when you want.

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Unread 05-27-2019, 04:57 PM   #5
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The tightness of the sideplate seems to vary between Lugers. My shooter only has a mismatched toggle but it has an extremely tight sideplate-takedown lever engagement. The other one I have, a DWM inter-war commercial, has an easy to manipulate engagement. As said, they’re hand fit guns and each one is different.
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Unread 05-27-2019, 05:00 PM   #6
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You need to fit the side plate to the frame and to clear the take down lever.
Changing the frame won't cure that problem.

The side plate has to fit the curve of the frame, the tang of the side plate has to be the correct thickness to clear the take down lever, and the semi-circular cut in the front of the side plate tang is cammed rearward to the frame by the take down lever, and must also be fit to get the takedown lever to close firmly but with thumb pressure.

You can expect to pay $250 to $350 for a frame, if you can find one that suits you.
I may have a Mauser frame that would suit.
Post pictures of the condition of your frame/pistol.
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Unread 05-27-2019, 11:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonVoigt View Post
You need to fit the side plate to the frame and to clear the take down lever.
Changing the frame won't cure that problem.

The side plate has to fit the curve of the frame, the tang of the side plate has to be the correct thickness to clear the take down lever, and the semi-circular cut in the front of the side plate tang is cammed rearward to the frame by the take down lever, and must also be fit to get the takedown lever to close firmly but with thumb pressure.

You can expect to pay $250 to $350 for a frame, if you can find one that suits you.
I may have a Mauser frame that would suit.
Post pictures of the condition of your frame/pistol.
Here's pictures of it, the frame is somehow significantly worse than the receiver. That price range isn't bad for a frame. If this one is already a little bit of a Frankenstein itself, I figure why not make it look better and have a few different barrel types for it.
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Unread 05-28-2019, 08:05 AM   #8
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That's the kind of corrosion typical of storing a Luger in a holster in a humid environment.

Do you draw back the toggles / receiver slightly before trying to disengage the take down bolt's lever? The receiver/cannon has to be pulled back first.

Try and determine where the take down lever / side plate has excessive friction. There is also a small retention spring just below the takedown bolt that might be incorrectly installed (it has a small curve milled out of it to allow the takedown lever to function).

Marc
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Unread 05-28-2019, 09:03 AM   #9
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Alex,

It looks like there is a two-line import stamp on the side of the frame, and the pitting is on top of that. I think it is a Century Arms stamp, looks like LUGER PARABELLUM GERMANY / CAI ST. ALB VT.

Also, I don't see the Mauser hump. I do see what looks like a proof mark on the front of the trigger guard, suggesting it may be a pre-WWII Erfurt frame.

KFS
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Unread 05-28-2019, 09:18 AM   #10
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The top line reads Luger P#####M (Parabellum?) Germany.
Bottom line is C.A. ##%#%# L(?) B(?) V.T. The periods on the bottom may also just be from the pitting.
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Unread 05-28-2019, 09:23 AM   #11
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That is not a Mauser frame, but as Karl hints- it is an Erfurt frame.
The import marking is the typical Century Arms International of St. Albans, VT.
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Unread 05-28-2019, 03:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrerick View Post
Do you draw back the toggles / receiver slightly before trying to disengage the take down bolt's lever? The receiver/cannon has to be pulled back first.

Try and determine where the take down lever / side plate has excessive friction. There is also a small retention spring just below the takedown bolt that might be incorrectly installed (it has a small curve milled out of it to allow the takedown lever to function).
Marc
There is friction near the end of the takedown lever where you put your thumb, the bluing has small wear and scratches showing that there is indeed a bit of friction there. It almost looks like the lever is slightly bent inward towards the gun. Looking at the space between the lever and the side plate, there is almost an elongated "V" shape for the gap, but since the spacing is probably less than half a millimeter, it might just be my eyes playing tricks. Would bending the lever in a vice be worth attempting? It would only need to move a small amount.

Also yes, I have done a proper disassembly of the gun and compared mine to videos, this is where I was confused how they were moving the lever with their thumb like it was nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonVoigt View Post
That is not a Mauser frame, but as Karl hints- it is an Erfurt frame.
The import marking is the typical Century Arms International of St. Albans, VT.
So if I am to understand correctly, this is a Mauser receiver with an Erfurt frame? Does that increase my chances of finding a frame in better condition? Does this also mean that Erfurt frames and Mauser Receivers are compatible?
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Unread 05-28-2019, 06:19 PM   #13
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Alex,

In general lugers are remarkably interchangeable but they also were also built to close tolerances and required hand fitting to function well. Your mismatched gun is apparently one that was reworked by a Russian or East German armorer and may function well despite the mixed parts.

In my opinion, if it works well enjoy it as is. It is a shooter: replacing the frame will not make it into a collector grade Luger and it just might cause problems with proper functioning.

I suggest that you shoot and learn from this Luger and save the money you might spend on a replacement frame as a down payment on your next Luger.

KFS
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