Luger build question...

[thegundude]

I'm looking at a frame for sale that still has the huge, CIA billboard-like import stamp on the side of it. What I'm wondering is can that be removed for a new build or is that frame stuck with that stamp no matter what?

Thanks for any help you can offer. I dont' want to drop $150 on a frame that's gunna look like junk no matter what's done to it.

[pipeman45]

I could be wrong-and my wife says I almost always am. But other than the serial number I think you can remove any marks you wish. That stamp was for importation only.

[Hugh]

Pipeman, tell your wife that for once you are correct!!!

[thegundude]

Thanks guys. I think I'm going to pass on the one with the import mark and pick one up from a forum member who's offered one at a good price. It isn't all marked up and looks very good.

[policeluger]

Please correct, my local ATF agent tell me it is against the law to remove import stamps, and there was a thread here last year to that affect.

[thegundude]

Thanks Howard. I thought I had read that somewhere, maybe it was here. It's been a while though...

Thanks again...

[Hugh]

Ask 10 different ATF agents the same question and you will receive 10 different answers!

I think that all the requirements as to marking the gun are imposed upon the importer. Once the consumer purchases the gun, they are free to obliterate any markings on the gun EXCEPT for the serial number. There is no law or regulation that I am aware of that forbids removal of any markings other than the serial number. The import markings are basically there to track the firearm from the importer to the FFL holder. Once it is out of the control of the FFL holder, the buyer can remove the markings. If it were illegal to remove the markings, then it is illegal to change out the bbl of a gun that has the importers mark on the bbl, as this would constitute "removing the importers mark"!!!!

If a law enforcement agency is trying to track a gun they will be using the serial number, not who the importer was. Besides, if it is a Luger, who's going to know if an importers stamp was originally there or not?

[SteveM]

Below is what the BATF refers to in regards to import markings. This is from US Customs.

SteveM

�§ 134.4 Penalties for removal, defacement,
or alteration of marking.
Any intentional removal, defacement,
destruction, or alteration of a
marking of the country of origin required
by section 304, Tariff Act of 1930,
as amended (19 U.S.C. 1304), and this
part in order to conceal this information
may result in criminal penalties
of up to $5,000 and/or imprisonment for
1 year, as provided in 19 U.S.C. 1304(h).
[T.D. 72â??262, 37 FR 20318, Sept. 29, 1972, as
amended by T.D. 90â??51, 55 FR 28191, July 10,
1990]

[Stu]

Hi Steve. Could you explain how the reference to the removal of a 'country of origin' mark relates to an importers mark.

These seem to be along the line of 'XYZ inc Falling Block IL'.

Or am I just completely out of date as to the syntax of the importer marking ?

[SteveM]

Below is what is required of importers. It looks like to me that the country of origin is part of the importers mark. All of this came from the BATF website.

However, I am a pretty simple guy and maybe I don't comprehend everything that I read. Wouldn't be the first time.

(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed
manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms,
must legibly identify each firearm
manufactured or imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping
(impressing), or otherwise conspicuously
placing or causing to be engraved,
cast, stamped (impressed) or
placed on the frame or receiver
thereof an individual serial number.
The serial number must be placed in
a manner not susceptible of being
readily obliterated, altered, or removed,
and must not duplicate any
serial number placed by you on any
other firearm. For firearms manufactured
or imported on and after January
30, 2002, the engraving, casting,
or stamping (impressing) of the serial
number must be to a minimum depth
of .003 inch and in a print size no
smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(ii) By engraving, casting, stamping
(impressing), or otherwise conspicuously
placing or causing to be
engraved, cast, stamped (impressed)
or placed on the frame, receiver, or
barrel thereof certain additional information.
This information must be
placed in a manner not susceptible of
being readily obliterated, altered, or
removed. For firearms manufactured
or imported on and after January 30,
2002, the engraving, casting, or
stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of
.003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(A) The model, if such designation
has been made;
(B) The caliber or gauge;
(C) Your name (or recognized
abbreviation) and also, when applicable,
the name of the foreign
manufacturer;
(D) In the case of a domestically
made firearm, the city and State (or
recognized abbreviation thereof)
where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business;
and
(E) In the case of an imported
firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the
city and State (or recognized abbreviation
thereof) where you as
the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements
relating to imported firearms,
see Customs regulations at 19
CFR part 134.

[pipeman45]

Steve. I know enough to know, I don't know enough. But the regulations you quote are for the importer or manufacturer,not a private person. Or am I reading it wrong?

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by SteveM
[B]�§ 134.4 Penalties for removal, defacement,
or alteration of marking.
Any intentional removal, defacement,
destruction, or alteration of a
..

All depends on interpertation... I have been told:

** that the marking is there for all to see where it came from

and also told

**that ONLY an importer or manufacturer has to 'worry" about the markings

and also told

**that the markings ONLY have to stay on until sold by the importer to a licensed dealer and once the dealer sells the item, you can do as you want with it...

I don't know, if you are a dealer, I don't think I'd have markings removed, but as a collector, well, I don't know

Ed

[SteveM]

Pipeman,

I'm like you, I know enough to know that I don't know enough. I'll do some more checking with some folks and get their ake on it.

[thegundude]

I know enough to know that I know enough to land my sorry butt in jail if I even look across the line, nevermind actually crossing it.

For my part, I'll just leave import marks alone and look for a frame that's clean. No worries that way. Or maybe just sacrifice one of my non-collectable Lugers to the "Baby Luger Project".

I wouldn't have thought the question would have been so cloudy. But it does involve the goverment so I should have known better...

[zinfull]

It is easier on P38s. They billboard the slide. This is not consider the main part to the BATF.

Jerry

[policeluger]

Very wise Steve...all have been warned.

[Herb]

Try this one

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...7cfr178.34.htm

[Stu]

Steve has a fair point quoting the regs, which seem quite complex enough !

I have 3 older imports that just have the importers name on them. I suspect the regs may have changed recently, (even CIA used to be a little less verbose and a lot more discreet !).

It may be that different rules will be applied dependant on when a gun was imported ?

[pipeman45]

Herb. Again ,that reg is talking about a serial number not a name.

[policeluger]

Called Fresno Ca. ATF office again yesterday, it is still aginest the law to remove any importers name/marks, no matter when/where/how marked....