question on when the last lugers were made - Page 2

Strider · 03-30-2004, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by John D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You are having a target painted on the side of your house??? Wow - the Zoning Board must be having a fit - not to mention your neighbors..??? <hr /></blockquote>I think the Mrs. would have something to say about that. I think she would rather have air conditioning instead of ventalation.

It does get hot down there.

Congrats on the new house Ron.
<img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

Sid.

Johnny C. Kitchens · 03-30-2004, 10:15 PM

I thought he was asking about the byf specifically...

kidvett · 03-31-2004, 12:03 AM

I agree with Johnny...on those BYF...

Sveere,

The last 2 years of Mauser production of P08s made for the German Military are as follows:

41 date Code 42 SE655 7000 produced
41 date BYF 1st Variation SE655 122 000 produced
41 date BYF 2nd Variation SE135 4000 produced
42 date BYF SE135 113 000 produced

Then phased out in favor of the P38......

MARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Vlim · 03-31-2004, 12:04 PM

Hi,

Some additional info:

If we take into account that there were 3 surviving production lines:
Krieghoff, Suhl.
Mauser, Oberndorf am N.
Eidgn. Waffenfabr. Bern, Switzerland.

There were some Krieghoffs assembled in 1945.
There were a bunch of Mausers assembled during French occupation from 1945 - 1947.
The swiss produced unti 1949.

Then there was a moment of lugerlessness from 1949 until 1967. Mauser bought the Swiss machinery and started producing again. Since they were made by a 'real' P08 producer on 'real' P08 equipment, I regard them as real.

Mauser produced them until the mid-80s. Although there are later ones, these are considered to come from ready-made stock so they no longer required a wide array of production equipment. Since Mauser supplied them well after production was finished it's difficult to give an exact date and since there are still quite a few Mausers awaiting final assembly it's debatable if Parabellum production has halted completely.

But basically we can say that the Military production of the luger stopped in 1949.

sverre · 03-31-2004, 12:09 PM

wow thanks for all the good answers..

this realy is a great forum!

Johnny C. Kitchens · 03-31-2004, 10:05 PM

Didn't Mauser finally admit that the Swiss tooling they bought for about $50,000 was useless and ended up creating all new tooling to produce their Parabellums of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. If true then it might be said that five sets of production machinery have been set up to produce Lugers, and that would be counting the set in Texas...

Edward Tinker · 03-31-2004, 10:33 PM

That is what it said in the recent book on Mauser, that they purchased, then decided it wasn't any good.

Ed

Vlim · 04-04-2004, 07:11 AM

Hi,

The reason why I spoke about 'Production lines' in stead of tool sets is that Krieghoff also denied using the Simson tooling, but it did mean that the old line disappeared and was replaced by a new one. The same goes for the Bern/Oberndorf line if the story is correct.

But for completeness sake we can say these are the 3 'original' production lines:

Line one:
DWM -> Mauser (Destroyed after 1947)

Line two:
Erfurt -> Simson -> Krieghoff -> VEB Ernst Thalmann -> Unknown (scrapped or stored?)

Line three:
Bern -> Mauser -> Unknown (scrapped or stored?)

I will not add the luger reproduction variations like the Aimco/Orimar/Stoeger/Erma/etc... to this list (yet).

mauro · 04-04-2004, 04:50 PM

Hello Guys,
For who is interested I have prepared a few weeks ago a web page concerning the P08 and LP08 made under French control. These rare models were made from August 1945 to 5 November 1947 when the Mauser tools were destroyed.
August Weiss was in charge of this production. According to him the production was about 2500-3500 P08s (only a few of LP08s were produced).
At page 91 and 92 are of my book is available a description.
Pictures are available in my web site: http://lugerlp08.free.fr
Then click Ã¢??LP08 made under French controlÃ¢?Â.
I hope this helps.
Ciao
Mauro

John D. · 04-04-2004, 06:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
....
There were some Krieghoffs assembled in 1945......<hr /></blockquote>Hello Gerben!

As you may know, that statement has been contested by some collectors of note, and as of late - as many believe that the "late variation" 1944 and all 1945 HKs are "faked" in entirety. I know that is incorrect for several reasons - and late 1944 and 1945 were, indeed - included in Military production ranges for HK.

To that point - I am almost ready to provide notes to that effect in public, based on both my research as well as on one of the pieces in my collection I've been researching for a number of years, which I was fortunate enough to come across.

For those research points, I entirely agree with you regarding HK production dates - which INCLUDE through 1945 military production.

My thanks for your post - and the remaining information regarding the other manufacturers. Excellent - and my thanks!

John

Sieger · 04-04-2004, 11:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
That is what it said in the recent book on Mauser, that they purchased, then decided it wasn't any good.

Ed<hr /></blockquote>Ed:

I've also read this, but find it hard to believe that Mauser would do such a thing (buy something sight unseen and then claim that is was worthless). What would the old German Professor Doktors say about doing something foolish like that.

If this were true, it seems strange that their product of the early 70s looked so much like a Swiss 29.

Sieger

Edward Tinker · 04-04-2004, 11:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've also read this, but find it hard to believe that Mauser would do such a thing (buy something sight unseen and then claim that is was worthless). What would the old German Professor Doktors say about doing something foolish like that. If this were true, it seems strange that their product of the early 70s looked so much like a Swiss 29.

Sieger[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Yes sir, I feel the same way. But from the quote, it sounded plausable.

But my gut feeling is that it is unlikely, but let me look for the quote.

Ed

03-30-2004, 06:21 PM	#21
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Originally posted by John D.: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> You are having a target painted on the side of your house??? Wow - the Zoning Board must be having a fit - not to mention your neighbors..??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I think the Mrs. would have something to say about that. I think she would rather have air conditioning instead of ventalation. It does get hot down there. Congrats on the new house Ron. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

03-30-2004, 10:15 PM	#22
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I thought he was asking about the byf specifically... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

03-31-2004, 10:05 PM	#26
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Didn't Mauser finally admit that the Swiss tooling they bought for about $50,000 was useless and ended up creating all new tooling to produce their Parabellums of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. If true then it might be said that five sets of production machinery have been set up to produce Lugers, and that would be counting the set in Texas... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

03-31-2004, 10:33 PM	#27
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	That is what it said in the recent book on Mauser, that they purchased, then decided it wasn't any good. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-04-2004, 04:50 PM	#29
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Guys, For who is interested I have prepared a few weeks ago a web page concerning the P08 and LP08 made under French control. These rare models were made from August 1945 to 5 November 1947 when the Mauser tools were destroyed. August Weiss was in charge of this production. According to him the production was about 2500-3500 P08s (only a few of LP08s were produced). At page 91 and 92 are of my book is available a description. Pictures are available in my web site: http://lugerlp08.free.fr Then click Ã¢??LP08 made under French controlÃ¢?Â. I hope this helps. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

03-31-2004, 12:03 AM	#23
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I agree with Johnny...on those BYF... Sveere, The last 2 years of Mauser production of P08s made for the German Military are as follows: 41 date Code 42 SE655 7000 produced 41 date BYF 1st Variation SE655 122 000 produced 41 date BYF 2nd Variation SE135 4000 produced 42 date BYF SE135 113 000 produced Then phased out in favor of the P38...... MARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

03-31-2004, 12:04 PM	#24
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, Some additional info: If we take into account that there were 3 surviving production lines: Krieghoff, Suhl. Mauser, Oberndorf am N. Eidgn. Waffenfabr. Bern, Switzerland. There were some Krieghoffs assembled in 1945. There were a bunch of Mausers assembled during French occupation from 1945 - 1947. The swiss produced unti 1949. Then there was a moment of lugerlessness from 1949 until 1967. Mauser bought the Swiss machinery and started producing again. Since they were made by a 'real' P08 producer on 'real' P08 equipment, I regard them as real. Mauser produced them until the mid-80s. Although there are later ones, these are considered to come from ready-made stock so they no longer required a wide array of production equipment. Since Mauser supplied them well after production was finished it's difficult to give an exact date and since there are still quite a few Mausers awaiting final assembly it's debatable if Parabellum production has halted completely. But basically we can say that the Military production of the luger stopped in 1949.

03-31-2004, 12:09 PM	#25
sverre User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	wow thanks for all the good answers.. this realy is a great forum!

04-04-2004, 07:11 AM	#28
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, The reason why I spoke about 'Production lines' in stead of tool sets is that Krieghoff also denied using the Simson tooling, but it did mean that the old line disappeared and was replaced by a new one. The same goes for the Bern/Oberndorf line if the story is correct. But for completeness sake we can say these are the 3 'original' production lines: Line one: DWM -> Mauser (Destroyed after 1947) Line two: Erfurt -> Simson -> Krieghoff -> VEB Ernst Thalmann -> Unknown (scrapped or stored?) Line three: Bern -> Mauser -> Unknown (scrapped or stored?) I will not add the luger reproduction variations like the Aimco/Orimar/Stoeger/Erma/etc... to this list (yet).

04-04-2004, 06:19 PM	#30
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren: <strong>.... There were some Krieghoffs assembled in 1945......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hello Gerben! As you may know, that statement has been contested by some collectors of note, and as of late - as many believe that the "late variation" 1944 and all 1945 HKs are "faked" in entirety. I know that is incorrect for several reasons - and late 1944 and 1945 were, indeed - included in Military production ranges for HK. To that point - I am almost ready to provide notes to that effect in public, based on both my research as well as on one of the pieces in my collection I've been researching for a number of years, which I was fortunate enough to come across. For those research points, I entirely agree with you regarding HK production dates - which INCLUDE through 1945 military production. My thanks for your post - and the remaining information regarding the other manufacturers. Excellent - and my thanks! John

04-04-2004, 11:04 PM	#31
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>That is what it said in the recent book on Mauser, that they purchased, then decided it wasn't any good. Ed</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ed: I've also read this, but find it hard to believe that Mauser would do such a thing (buy something sight unseen and then claim that is was worthless). What would the old German Professor Doktors say about doing something foolish like that. If this were true, it seems strange that their product of the early 70s looked so much like a Swiss 29. Sieger

04-04-2004, 11:11 PM	#32
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I've also read this, but find it hard to believe that Mauser would do such a thing (buy something sight unseen and then claim that is was worthless). What would the old German Professor Doktors say about doing something foolish like that. If this were true, it seems strange that their product of the early 70s looked so much like a Swiss 29. Sieger[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yes sir, I feel the same way. But from the quote, it sounded plausable. But my gut feeling is that it is unlikely, but let me look for the quote. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV