Krieghoff Production Site Question

Dear readers,


I have asked around in two other fora before, and two gentle readers (EOC Bob and Marvin Cook) was kind enough to point me here (one also threatened to sell me a Luger patch, eventually ;-).


I hope I won't blunder too badly, as a newbie in this specific forum. Here goes the question, and maybe some of you with the appropriate specialized literature at hand (Randall Gibson ? others ?) may be able to furbish more information, and to cite chapter and verse of the source(s) which they use:


Readers of other fora here may have seen me on occasion, but you are aware that I am a total newbie in this (highly

specialized) forum, and thus I take the liberty to ask for some lenience, if my question is weighed and found to be trite, or to have been answered already three times in the last five years ;-)...


My question pertains to the German firm of Heinrich Krieghoff, and I assume that Luger collectors may know more about them than most others. I do not know when Krieghoff production or assembly exactly ended (seems to be a disputed topic ?), but my question is different anyhow. Maybe someone with specialized Krieghoff literature at hand could be as nice as to try to look it up for me ? - I would be much indebted.


Krieghoff is said to have entertained a production or assembly site in Southern Tyrol (nowadays Alto Adige) in the last year(s) of the war, probably in the old mining city of Sterzing. I would like to know as much as possible about this branch factory - where was it located, what was done there, how long did it operate etc. ? A hint to sources would be apreciated. I need the info for our Carcano research efforts, because Carcanos were converted there.


Many thanks in advance,

Alexander Eichener

carcano91@hotmail.com



Carcano Website

[Marvin]

I hope that someone can help Alexander out on his question. I don't know anything about the Krieghoff Luger and I told him to come to our Forum and he would get an answer. Let's Help.


Marvin

[Patrick]

Wilco - this evening - Patrick

[John D.]

Welcome Alexander..!!!


First of all, your question is the bane of many Krieg collectors - as production for the Krieghoff products (there were several) were spread across several factories and facilities. Before I get going on what I think I know - let me use this as background for you.


There have been many who authors have attempted to cover Kreig production and products including Gibson, Kenyon, Still just to name a few. However, the most definitive work on Kreigs is found in Randall Gibsons book entitled "THE KREIGHOFF PARABELLUM" copyright 1980 (1st printing). Therefore, I'll reference that as the primary factual source.


The actual firms name was H. Krieghoff Waffenfabrik - and the primary factory was located in Suhl. This facility, destroyed by the Russians after the end of the war, was the base of operations. Other satellite operations occured in SUHL outskirts (Erffastrasse, Gothaerstrasse, Stamp Forge) and surrounding towns (Schwarza, Kloster Vessra, Themar, Unterneubrunn) as well as Austria, Belgium, Italy and Poland. (Gibson - p. 13 - 14). During the war, Krieghoff also manufactered flare pistols (Belgium), machine gun barrels for aircraft, reworked Italian carbines for the German Army, made machine gun internal parts, etc. - and other things I can't remember just now...


As for Luger production, while it is undocumented - the Luftwaffe is rumored to have insisted that production occur only in the main facility in Suhl - utilizing the surrounding smaller assembly shops for components (toggles, frames, etc.). However, since the main facility was responsible for blueing, final fit and assy, forging, etc. - and since most of the Kreig Luger production required hand fitting of the parts - it is likely that most assy did, indeed take place at SUHL itself.


As for post-war Kriegs, these were assembled (under strict guard) by a few factory workers who wanted to build Lugers for the GIs. They are very poor quality (finish) and tend to be numbered on the inside of the major components. Most have blank toggles - and while there are some reported with marked toggles, these are thought to be manufactured by GIs from the extra wartime supplies when they "liberated" the factory. Additionally, since there were only a few factory workers who were allowed to work under guard - some of the final production of these "post war" Krieg parts (toggles, etc.) was apparently accomplished by local gunsmiths in SUHL. Given the diverse quality of these post-war examples, that rumor is probably true.


The reported number of post-war Kriegs is thought to be about 240-250 Lugers - with most being sold in PXs for a whopping $25-50. As for those assembled by GI's - there are only a few known and documented.


Hope this helps!!

[John D.]

I believe, for your research, that what you are referring to is the Sterzing, Italy plant (known as Plant #12 during it's operation). It was there that HK rebuilt the Italian Carcano carbine for the German military. I believe that it was a change in caliber and a re-work of the major action to German Army specification. The two other facilities in Italy (Muhlbach and Franzensfeste) apparently were not completed before that area was liberated. All three were located in the South Tyrol area of Italy. Again - I'll defer to Gibson for these facts...

[Patrick]

Waffenfabrik Heinrich Krieghoff, Suhl in Thuringia: Luger production from 1935 - 1945. Luger P 08 production - 12 000 to 13 000. During 1920s and 1930s, Krieghoff received parts and finished Lugers from BKIW (prev. DWM) and from Mauser, stamped them with the Krieghoff logo and marketed them. Krieghoff took over the machinery, parts etc. from Simson & Co. (BSW) during 1934. Krieghoffs were not coded as their production was destined for the unofficial air sports association. There was no Luftwaffe at that time. The first complete Krieghoff Lugers were made towards the end of 1935, beginning of 1936. Thuringia was first occupied by U.S. forces and Luger production was continued for PX sales (approx. 250 Lugers). Heinrich Krieghoff and his son Heinz-Ulrich started a new factory after WWII in Ulm, Bavaria.Present address: H. Krieghoff GmbH, Boschstr. 22, 89079 Ulm, Germany. e-mail: krieghoff@krieghoff.de; URL: www.krieghoff.de. I don�´t suppose that they would be very williong to help as there are outstanding compensation payments for slave labour.Patrick

[John Sabato]

[John D.]

Hi Patrick...


I think there were a number of HK rework markings/logos:


- The DWM logo toggle - rather then being stamped with the HK logo on the toggle. They were marked, above the lanyard ring on the backframe with "KRIEGHOFF SUHL". Also, some *are* chamber marked - specifically "1921", but blank chambers are most common.


- DWM supplied - which have the sideframe inscription and the HK toggle. No chamber dates.


- DWM supplied - no sideframe inscription and the HK toggle.


All these do have the HK proofs..


HTH..!!

[EOC Bob]

Glad you found us Alexander. For those of us that do not know Alexander, he is a noted collector and author of many weapons related articles, who along with Gaetano Liberatore are the motovating force behind the Carcano website, perhaps the priemier website on the net. I own several of these rifles and any knowledge I have of them comes directly from that site. I have filled a notebook with their informative and well written reports. So welcome to the Luger Forum Alexander, now if we could just redirect some of your thoughts to these marvelous weapons, and then there is that patch thing... Best regards - Bob