1917 DWM - Luger Newbie

bradrsi · 06-11-2011, 12:31 AM

Hey guys...hopefully I am posting to the correct board. I am a gun collector but have never ventured very far into older guns. I recently purchased a luger and this is what I know about it. After I explain, please let me know your thoughts and or input. I will include some photos. The gun is stamped 1917 and DWM on the top. The serial number is 4 digits with no prefix or suffix. It has the number 1 above the serial number on the barrel and the magagine. The safety reads "Gesichert". The serial numbers match everywhere including the magazine. However, the rear large connecting pin has a different two digit number than the other parts. One thing that I am not sure about is the numbering under the serial number on the barrel. It looks like 383 under the serial number. It has unit markings on the side of the gun and a total of 10 proof marks that I can find on it. I would love to know what the gun is worth but I am not an expert in this field. I was really excited because it was in such good condition and all of the numbers matched UNTIL I saw the connecting pin. Is it possible it is the original pin? Is it coincidental that it has 383 under the serial and a 33 on the connecting pin? What does the "1" mean? Any and all comments and input are appreciated. Thank you.

bradrsi · 06-11-2011, 12:40 AM

I will post pics as soon as the forum will let me. I just signed up so maybe my account has to be approved first...not sure.

Norme · 06-11-2011, 12:42 AM

Hi Bradley, Welcome to the forum. Pictures are a must if we are going to be any help to you. First the bad news: the rear toggle pin is not original to the gun, it should be unnumbered and carry an Erfurt firing proof (an eagle). Secondly the good: the numbers you see under the barrel are 8,83, the diameter of the barrel in millimeters, from land to land. From here on we'll need those photos! Regards, Norm

bradrsi · 06-11-2011, 02:26 AM

Thank you Norm. I now have some pictures. Let me know if you need additional pictures. How hard is it to find a connector pin with the correct two numbers on it? As far as I can see, that is the only thing keeping this from being 100%. However, you guys know a lot more about it than me. Yes, it is an 8,83 on the bottom below the serial. So, is this a 9mm? What ammo could be shot through it? Any info at all about it will be greatly appreciated.

Balder · 06-11-2011, 05:42 AM

bradrsi,

Welcome to the board, you will not find a better gun board on the net! The experts here (I'm certainly not one of them) are extremely knowledgeable and friendly.

You have an interesting gun which has probably seen German police service after WW1 due to the presence of the Schiwy, or sear, safety. I'm a little confused since yours does not have the "1920" property mark over the chamber. This is usually found on police Lugers. Are there any (unit) markings on the front or back grip strap?

I do not think the magazine is original, WW1 guns came with wood bottom magazines. But - I am no expert, I'm sure the Gurus will chime in soon.

I would be very careful firing it, there seems to be a crack in the metal just above the side plate.

Balder

Norme · 06-11-2011, 09:11 AM

Hi Brad, As Balder has noted, the receiver on this gun is cracked, It's time to retire this old war horse. Originally this gun had a wood based magazine but it was fitted with the later, aluminum based one at the time of the Police rework. As I said earlier, Erfurt toggle pins are unnumbered and are stamped with a proof eagle (see photo). Regards, Norm

sheepherder · 06-11-2011, 09:39 AM

Norm -

How do you tell an Erfurt from a DWM??? Since this has a DWM toggle, it's a parts Luger, correct??? (Or more probably, a police refurb).

Norme · 06-11-2011, 10:38 AM

Your right, Rich, I must have had a senior moment. All my previous remarks apply, except no eagle on the rear toggle pin, it should be blank. Regards, Norm

bradrsi · 06-11-2011, 11:50 AM

Wow, I did not even see a crack. Several people have looked at it and nobody has noticed it. I don't have the gun here at work with me but I will look. I guess the camera on my phone picks up on some detail we can't easily see. Well, does the crack completely ruin any value? I thought I found a treasure...I guess that is what I get for buying without someone with me to inspect. What would it be worth roughly without a crack?

bradrsi · 06-11-2011, 11:53 AM

Also, I will check for markings on the front and back of the strap as soon as I get home from work.

bradrsi · 06-11-2011, 12:23 PM

I will make it simple. I paid $750.00. The guy that sold it to me said he will refund my money. Should I keep it or get a refund and invest it toward another one and possibly more...I have grown to like this gun a lot!

lugerholsterrepair · 06-11-2011, 12:28 PM

Bradley..Well, does the crack completely ruin any value? It destroys the pistol as a complete and viable shooting arm. The pistol cannot be fired safely with this crack.

The date is very faint on the chamber which leads me to believe the pistol might have been refinished in it's past but either way the problems extant are such that the pistol as a shooter WITHOUT a crack might have been valued at say..$7-800. WITH the crack it ruins a couple of hundred dollars worth of parts and a further inspection is now necessary to look for further cracking and or damage.
What's it worth? As is I would say $400..if the pistol were broken down into individual parts and sold by the part..you might get a little more. One of the pricier parts is the sideplate but since it has the Police notch it is not as desireable as one without.
All in all a sad end to a nice pistol.

Just noticed your last post..GET YOUR MONEY BACK!

wlyon · 06-11-2011, 12:40 PM

Agree with Jerry. Get your money back !!!! Bill

bradrsi · 06-11-2011, 01:23 PM

Wow...you guys are awesome. Let's say my first venture into the Luger world wasn't great. I really want a nice one to put up and a good one for shooting. I am returning the pistol for the refund. I was so busy looking at all of the markings I never even imagined a crack. At least ten people have looked at it without noticing that so It isn't as bad as it looks in the photo but it's still a crack. I called my wife at home and told her where to look and she was shocked to see the crack. Thanks again guys.

sheepherder · 06-11-2011, 02:21 PM

You might want to direct the seller to this Forum and this thread, too...There are members of this Forum who would be interested in buying the complete gun for its parts...but not for what he's asking for it, of course...

Even that cracked receiver would have some value as a wall hanger/desk ornament...

06-11-2011, 12:31 AM	#1
bradrsi User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1917 DWM - Luger Newbie Hey guys...hopefully I am posting to the correct board. I am a gun collector but have never ventured very far into older guns. I recently purchased a luger and this is what I know about it. After I explain, please let me know your thoughts and or input. I will include some photos. The gun is stamped 1917 and DWM on the top. The serial number is 4 digits with no prefix or suffix. It has the number 1 above the serial number on the barrel and the magagine. The safety reads "Gesichert". The serial numbers match everywhere including the magazine. However, the rear large connecting pin has a different two digit number than the other parts. One thing that I am not sure about is the numbering under the serial number on the barrel. It looks like 383 under the serial number. It has unit markings on the side of the gun and a total of 10 proof marks that I can find on it. I would love to know what the gun is worth but I am not an expert in this field. I was really excited because it was in such good condition and all of the numbers matched UNTIL I saw the connecting pin. Is it possible it is the original pin? Is it coincidental that it has 383 under the serial and a 33 on the connecting pin? What does the "1" mean? Any and all comments and input are appreciated. Thank you.

06-11-2011, 09:11 AM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Brad, As Balder has noted, the receiver on this gun is cracked, It's time to retire this old war horse. Originally this gun had a wood based magazine but it was fitted with the later, aluminum based one at the time of the Police rework. As I said earlier, Erfurt toggle pins are unnumbered and are stamped with a proof eagle (see photo). Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

06-11-2011, 09:39 AM	#7
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Norm - How do you tell an Erfurt from a DWM??? Since this has a DWM toggle, it's a parts Luger, correct??? (Or more probably, a police refurb). __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

06-11-2011, 12:28 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Bradley..Well, does the crack completely ruin any value? It destroys the pistol as a complete and viable shooting arm. The pistol cannot be fired safely with this crack. The date is very faint on the chamber which leads me to believe the pistol might have been refinished in it's past but either way the problems extant are such that the pistol as a shooter WITHOUT a crack might have been valued at say..$7-800. WITH the crack it ruins a couple of hundred dollars worth of parts and a further inspection is now necessary to look for further cracking and or damage. What's it worth? As is I would say $400..if the pistol were broken down into individual parts and sold by the part..you might get a little more. One of the pricier parts is the sideplate but since it has the Police notch it is not as desireable as one without. All in all a sad end to a nice pistol. Just noticed your last post..GET YOUR MONEY BACK! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-11-2011, 12:40 PM	#13
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,635 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,556 Times in 954 Posts	Agree with Jerry. Get your money back !!!! Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

06-11-2011, 12:40 AM	#2
bradrsi User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will post pics as soon as the forum will let me. I just signed up so maybe my account has to be approved first...not sure.

06-11-2011, 12:42 AM	#3
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Bradley, Welcome to the forum. Pictures are a must if we are going to be any help to you. First the bad news: the rear toggle pin is not original to the gun, it should be unnumbered and carry an Erfurt firing proof (an eagle). Secondly the good: the numbers you see under the barrel are 8,83, the diameter of the barrel in millimeters, from land to land. From here on we'll need those photos! Regards, Norm

06-11-2011, 02:26 AM	#4
bradrsi User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Norm. I now have some pictures. Let me know if you need additional pictures. How hard is it to find a connector pin with the correct two numbers on it? As far as I can see, that is the only thing keeping this from being 100%. However, you guys know a lot more about it than me. Yes, it is an 8,83 on the bottom below the serial. So, is this a 9mm? What ammo could be shot through it? Any info at all about it will be greatly appreciated.

06-11-2011, 05:42 AM	#5
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	bradrsi, Welcome to the board, you will not find a better gun board on the net! The experts here (I'm certainly not one of them) are extremely knowledgeable and friendly. You have an interesting gun which has probably seen German police service after WW1 due to the presence of the Schiwy, or sear, safety. I'm a little confused since yours does not have the "1920" property mark over the chamber. This is usually found on police Lugers. Are there any (unit) markings on the front or back grip strap? I do not think the magazine is original, WW1 guns came with wood bottom magazines. But - I am no expert, I'm sure the Gurus will chime in soon. I would be very careful firing it, there seems to be a crack in the metal just above the side plate. Balder

06-11-2011, 10:38 AM	#8
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Your right, Rich, I must have had a senior moment. All my previous remarks apply, except no eagle on the rear toggle pin, it should be blank. Regards, Norm

06-11-2011, 11:50 AM	#9
bradrsi User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow, I did not even see a crack. Several people have looked at it and nobody has noticed it. I don't have the gun here at work with me but I will look. I guess the camera on my phone picks up on some detail we can't easily see. Well, does the crack completely ruin any value? I thought I found a treasure...I guess that is what I get for buying without someone with me to inspect. What would it be worth roughly without a crack?

06-11-2011, 11:53 AM	#10
bradrsi User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, I will check for markings on the front and back of the strap as soon as I get home from work.

06-11-2011, 12:23 PM	#11
bradrsi User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will make it simple. I paid $750.00. The guy that sold it to me said he will refund my money. Should I keep it or get a refund and invest it toward another one and possibly more...I have grown to like this gun a lot!

06-11-2011, 01:23 PM	#14
bradrsi User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow...you guys are awesome. Let's say my first venture into the Luger world wasn't great. I really want a nice one to put up and a good one for shooting. I am returning the pistol for the refund. I was so busy looking at all of the markings I never even imagined a crack. At least ten people have looked at it without noticing that so It isn't as bad as it looks in the photo but it's still a crack. I called my wife at home and told her where to look and she was shocked to see the crack. Thanks again guys.

06-11-2011, 02:21 PM	#15
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	You might want to direct the seller to this Forum and this thread, too...There are members of this Forum who would be interested in buying the complete gun for its parts...but not for what he's asking for it, of course... Even that cracked receiver would have some value as a wall hanger/desk ornament... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...