New member- Questions about parts originality

The lingerer · 05-19-2018, 08:27 PM

Hello, happy to say I finally purchased my first luger last week, a 1938 S/42 matching russian capture bought at a gun show (perhaps not the best place to buy a first luger?)

From what I have read and understand, the germans moved away from strawing many of the small parts, including the trigger in favor of bluing in 1937. This is why I was confused to have a "light" colored trigger, although the numbers on the trigger match the rest of the gun.

Why is this? does this look like it may have been strawed? My best guess is that perhaps someone polished the trigger for whatever reason. In some places it looks like salt bluing remains, or perhaps this is preservative I was unable to remove or a tarnished portion.

Assuming it's polished, If I did salt blue it, would this be considered fraudulent, or returning the gun to original condition?

The bore is nice, but if this is an original all matching, should I refrain from shooting it or buy another toggle train for when I shoot it?

Finally, what is the deal with the upside down number in the sideplate?

Asking price was $1,200 and I paid $1,050 I realize value in russian captures is increasing, is this as good of a deal as I thought it was?

Thank you all in advance!

DavidJayUden · 05-19-2018, 08:35 PM

I can only guess that someone has removed the bluing from the trigger, as a 1938 gun should have a blued trigger. Also, the webbing has been trimmed away on the rear of the trigger, so someone has definitely messed with it.
Why do you say it is Russian capture?
But regardless, go ahead and re-blue the trigger if you wish, it will make no difference in value IMHO.
dju

The lingerer · 05-19-2018, 08:50 PM

Mainly the salt-blued appearance (I know the germans also did this) and this star stamped on the inside of the frame. It doesn't have any of the "X"s common of the russian captures, but I spoke with one of the "luger experts" who specializes in trading lugers and he said the star on the inside of the frame was an indication of a russian capture. This dealer also didn't know I was looking at this gun, nor was he the seller, so I don't think that influenced his answer.

wlyon · 05-19-2018, 08:52 PM

The side plate number apparently was stamped wrong and just left that way. I to am curious why you call this a Russian capture. I think the trigger was sanded and removed the blue for whatever reason. Actually a nice looking luger. Bill

The lingerer · 05-19-2018, 08:59 PM

The dealer advertised it as a Russian capture, although he didn't seem to be an expert, so I was initially suspicious. He showed me the star on the frame, and I remembered that this gun didnt have any of the other characteristics of a captured gun (the "X"s, electropenciled numbers, etc.). This is what led me to asking this dealer who specializes in lugers about the star, and he answered that it's an indication of a russian capture, so I just took him for his word. In addition, the finish seemed to have a good finish, so I thought that perhaps it was from the refinished salt blue.

Thanks, wlyon, is there any particular reason it wouldn't be a russian captured luger?

DavidJayUden · 05-19-2018, 10:19 PM

I'd question why it IS a Russian capture, not the other way around.
How about a set of good photos showing the entire gun as well as specific areas, markings, finish, etc.
Bill, good catch on the up-side down numbers on the side plate!
dju

ithacaartist · 05-19-2018, 11:04 PM

My question is about why the back half of the bottom portion of the trigger has been hacked off. File/grinding marks are visible on its side, as well. There's certainly more missing that a bit of bluing...

I'm wondering if this was done by someone unfamiliar with Lugers--instead of adjusting the side plate lever--to give the trigger more travel.

The lingerer · 05-19-2018, 11:10 PM

What would the star mean then? I was a bit weary, but now I definitely am. is there a chance this is a refinish that is not original german (or russian if that is somehow the case)?

It also seems like bubba went to the Wile E. Coyote school of gunsmithing and may have took a file to the connecting piece on the side plate, thus probably the reason for the trigger modification.

I have a feeling I may have made a bad purchase... I'm going to be sick

The lingerer · 05-19-2018, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

My question is about why the back half of the bottom portion of the trigger has been hacked off. File/grinding marks are visible on its side, as well. There's certainly more missing that a bit of bluing...

I'm wondering if this was done by someone unfamiliar with Lugers--instead of adjusting the side plate lever--to give the trigger more travel.

You read my mind. The piece looks ground down.

DavidJayUden · 05-20-2018, 12:07 AM

I would say that the finish looks like a matt black, similar to that of a Russian captured gun. But I don't know that the star means anything relevant to this subject.
We will never know the "why" of the trigger work, but what counts is does it function correctly? To me the RC story matters not in the gun's value. It is no longer original, therefore a shooter. So how does it shoot?
dju

mrerick · 05-20-2018, 09:41 AM

So, it's very likely someone was messing with the trigger, plate and possibly the trigger linkage.

You'll need to check and verify it is correct prior to firing it. Start with one cartridge at a time, then move to two. I don't generally put more than 5 in a Luger magazine.

I don't have any EG or replacement trigger plates to compare this one to. If there is no number inside the plate relating to the first digits of the gun's sn it is a likely replacement. In any case, the plate looks like a replacement.

Here, for reference, is the side plate and trigger area from my 1938 Mauser Luger:

You will notice the shape of the plate, the corners and the shape of the part that encloses the trigger transfer bar.

Nothing you can do will "restore the gun to original condition" and regardless of finish replacement it should never be represented as "original".

The star in that location inside the receiver or frame is typically an internal factory inspection mark done by a Mauser worker as the part moved through the manufacturing process. That shaped star was also used as an acceptance mark by the French occupants of the Mauser factory after the war.

The finish has a dull appearance and may be a dip refinish.

Assuming the trigger linkage is correct, reliable and working properly, you have a nice gun for shooting.

Don't be anxious. The price you paid is appropriate for that.

The lingerer · 05-20-2018, 09:59 AM

Thanks for the info everyone! The bore looks really nice, I haven't shot it yet though.

In this case then since the gun is already missing original parts or modified, I will probably replace the trigger with an original or reproduction trigger and replace the sideplate lever with an original or reproduction.

I was originally looking for a shooter anyway, so I guess it doesn't break my heart that not everything is as it should be, but I would at least like it to appear period correct with unmodified trigger components. Other than that, the gun is interesting (to me), the finish looks nice enough, and I don't have to worry about breaking a matching part anymore.

I guess I will have to do a bit more research next time, I felt I had done enough originally, but this was obviously not the case. It would probably help if I bought from a reputable luger dealer or collector.

I'll post a photo of the bore when I get home tonight.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-20-2018, 10:43 AM

A shooter pistol must shoot. Before you get to the range and tie it to an old tire with a 20 foot pull string...does the pistol click when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber?

4 Scale · 05-20-2018, 11:55 AM

While there are several suggestions of refinish from the pistol's general appearane, most notably both the trigger lever and the coupling link on the toggle are blued. On an orginal 1938 military, those should be white. When those parts are blued it is definitive proof of refinish.

As far as replacing any parts, if the pistol functions properly most collectors would not bother. The refinish makes it a shooter and replacing parts will not increase the value of the pistol. Better to allocate those funds towards an eventual collectible.

I hope you post a dry fire report, I agree with Jerry's suggestion that the next step on this pistol should be to check trigger function. If you dry fire you might want to consider placing a dummy round (aka 'snap cap') in the chamber as dry firing the Luger on an empty chamber is not recommended. As you dry fire, carefully check the clearance between the trigger and the frame. My guess is you will discover the trigger was ground down because the side-plate/trigger level geometry changed when the side plate/trigger lever was modified/replaced. Phrased differently, I'm guessing that whatever was done to the trigger lever/side plate necessitated metal removal so the trigger could go farther back. I can say from expereince that altering anything that impacts trigger geometry can create a cascade of mechanical issues. Consider that if the root cause of the trigger modification turns out to be trigger lever/side plate geometry, if you replace the trigger the pistol may not fire at all.

I think you've got a promising shooter, congratulations and welcome.

DonVoigt · 05-20-2018, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The lingerer

You read my mind. The piece looks ground down.

They are ground during fitting; so nothing wrong with what you see; other than most will have a bit of a bevel to help in the "reset".

Yes, do more homework and look at more pictures and threads here.

Edward Tinker · 05-20-2018, 01:59 PM

Please see the FAQ - it discusses a Star and it discusses internal markings. Mostly makers marks, the mean almost nothing to collectors.

mrerick · 05-20-2018, 02:21 PM

A Luger's trigger and the parts that integrate it to the firing pin are both complex and sensitive.

Without a fair level of experience, you're likely to do more damage than good.

If it is malfunctioning as it is now, consider sending it to someone like Tom "LugerDoc" with experience fitting Luger triggers.

If it is functioning properly, why open up a potential bag of worms?

Have the trigger hot blued if you don't like it as is.

jussi16 · 05-22-2018, 06:16 AM

The side plate does not look like an original part.

05-19-2018, 08:27 PM	#1
The lingerer User Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New member- Questions about parts originality Hello, happy to say I finally purchased my first luger last week, a 1938 S/42 matching russian capture bought at a gun show (perhaps not the best place to buy a first luger?) From what I have read and understand, the germans moved away from strawing many of the small parts, including the trigger in favor of bluing in 1937. This is why I was confused to have a "light" colored trigger, although the numbers on the trigger match the rest of the gun. Why is this? does this look like it may have been strawed? My best guess is that perhaps someone polished the trigger for whatever reason. In some places it looks like salt bluing remains, or perhaps this is preservative I was unable to remove or a tarnished portion. Assuming it's polished, If I did salt blue it, would this be considered fraudulent, or returning the gun to original condition? The bore is nice, but if this is an original all matching, should I refrain from shooting it or buy another toggle train for when I shoot it? Finally, what is the deal with the upside down number in the sideplate? Asking price was $1,200 and I paid $1,050 I realize value in russian captures is increasing, is this as good of a deal as I thought it was? Thank you all in advance! Attached Thumbnails

05-19-2018, 08:50 PM	#3
The lingerer User Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mainly the salt-blued appearance (I know the germans also did this) and this star stamped on the inside of the frame. It doesn't have any of the "X"s common of the russian captures, but I spoke with one of the "luger experts" who specializes in trading lugers and he said the star on the inside of the frame was an indication of a russian capture. This dealer also didn't know I was looking at this gun, nor was he the seller, so I don't think that influenced his answer. Attached Thumbnails

05-19-2018, 08:52 PM	#4
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	The side plate number apparently was stamped wrong and just left that way. I to am curious why you call this a Russian capture. I think the trigger was sanded and removed the blue for whatever reason. Actually a nice looking luger. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

05-19-2018, 11:04 PM	#7
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,283 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	My question is about why the back half of the bottom portion of the trigger has been hacked off. File/grinding marks are visible on its side, as well. There's certainly more missing that a bit of bluing... I'm wondering if this was done by someone unfamiliar with Lugers--instead of adjusting the side plate lever--to give the trigger more travel. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-19-2018, 11:10 PM	#8
The lingerer User Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What would the star mean then? I was a bit weary, but now I definitely am. is there a chance this is a refinish that is not original german (or russian if that is somehow the case)? It also seems like bubba went to the Wile E. Coyote school of gunsmithing and may have took a file to the connecting piece on the side plate, thus probably the reason for the trigger modification. I have a feeling I may have made a bad purchase... I'm going to be sick Attached Thumbnails

05-19-2018, 08:35 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I can only guess that someone has removed the bluing from the trigger, as a 1938 gun should have a blued trigger. Also, the webbing has been trimmed away on the rear of the trigger, so someone has definitely messed with it. Why do you say it is Russian capture? But regardless, go ahead and re-blue the trigger if you wish, it will make no difference in value IMHO. dju

05-19-2018, 08:59 PM	#5
The lingerer User Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The dealer advertised it as a Russian capture, although he didn't seem to be an expert, so I was initially suspicious. He showed me the star on the frame, and I remembered that this gun didnt have any of the other characteristics of a captured gun (the "X"s, electropenciled numbers, etc.). This is what led me to asking this dealer who specializes in lugers about the star, and he answered that it's an indication of a russian capture, so I just took him for his word. In addition, the finish seemed to have a good finish, so I thought that perhaps it was from the refinished salt blue. Thanks, wlyon, is there any particular reason it wouldn't be a russian captured luger?

05-19-2018, 10:19 PM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'd question why it IS a Russian capture, not the other way around. How about a set of good photos showing the entire gun as well as specific areas, markings, finish, etc. Bill, good catch on the up-side down numbers on the side plate! dju

05-20-2018, 12:07 AM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I would say that the finish looks like a matt black, similar to that of a Russian captured gun. But I don't know that the star means anything relevant to this subject. We will never know the "why" of the trigger work, but what counts is does it function correctly? To me the RC story matters not in the gun's value. It is no longer original, therefore a shooter. So how does it shoot? dju

05-20-2018, 09:41 AM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	So, it's very likely someone was messing with the trigger, plate and possibly the trigger linkage. You'll need to check and verify it is correct prior to firing it. Start with one cartridge at a time, then move to two. I don't generally put more than 5 in a Luger magazine. I don't have any EG or replacement trigger plates to compare this one to. If there is no number inside the plate relating to the first digits of the gun's sn it is a likely replacement. In any case, the plate looks like a replacement. Here, for reference, is the side plate and trigger area from my 1938 Mauser Luger: You will notice the shape of the plate, the corners and the shape of the part that encloses the trigger transfer bar. Nothing you can do will "restore the gun to original condition" and regardless of finish replacement it should never be represented as "original". The star in that location inside the receiver or frame is typically an internal factory inspection mark done by a Mauser worker as the part moved through the manufacturing process. That shaped star was also used as an acceptance mark by the French occupants of the Mauser factory after the war. The finish has a dull appearance and may be a dip refinish. Assuming the trigger linkage is correct, reliable and working properly, you have a nice gun for shooting. Don't be anxious. The price you paid is appropriate for that. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-20-2018, 09:59 AM	#12
The lingerer User Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info everyone! The bore looks really nice, I haven't shot it yet though. In this case then since the gun is already missing original parts or modified, I will probably replace the trigger with an original or reproduction trigger and replace the sideplate lever with an original or reproduction. I was originally looking for a shooter anyway, so I guess it doesn't break my heart that not everything is as it should be, but I would at least like it to appear period correct with unmodified trigger components. Other than that, the gun is interesting (to me), the finish looks nice enough, and I don't have to worry about breaking a matching part anymore. I guess I will have to do a bit more research next time, I felt I had done enough originally, but this was obviously not the case. It would probably help if I bought from a reputable luger dealer or collector. I'll post a photo of the bore when I get home tonight. Last edited by The lingerer; 05-20-2018 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Did not read previous post correctly

05-20-2018, 10:43 AM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	A shooter pistol must shoot. Before you get to the range and tie it to an old tire with a 20 foot pull string...does the pistol click when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-20-2018, 11:55 AM	#14
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	While there are several suggestions of refinish from the pistol's general appearane, most notably both the trigger lever and the coupling link on the toggle are blued. On an orginal 1938 military, those should be white. When those parts are blued it is definitive proof of refinish. As far as replacing any parts, if the pistol functions properly most collectors would not bother. The refinish makes it a shooter and replacing parts will not increase the value of the pistol. Better to allocate those funds towards an eventual collectible. I hope you post a dry fire report, I agree with Jerry's suggestion that the next step on this pistol should be to check trigger function. If you dry fire you might want to consider placing a dummy round (aka 'snap cap') in the chamber as dry firing the Luger on an empty chamber is not recommended. As you dry fire, carefully check the clearance between the trigger and the frame. My guess is you will discover the trigger was ground down because the side-plate/trigger level geometry changed when the side plate/trigger lever was modified/replaced. Phrased differently, I'm guessing that whatever was done to the trigger lever/side plate necessitated metal removal so the trigger could go farther back. I can say from expereince that altering anything that impacts trigger geometry can create a cascade of mechanical issues. Consider that if the root cause of the trigger modification turns out to be trigger lever/side plate geometry, if you replace the trigger the pistol may not fire at all. I think you've got a promising shooter, congratulations and welcome.

05-20-2018, 01:59 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Please see the FAQ - it discusses a Star and it discusses internal markings. Mostly makers marks, the mean almost nothing to collectors.

05-20-2018, 02:21 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	A Luger's trigger and the parts that integrate it to the firing pin are both complex and sensitive. Without a fair level of experience, you're likely to do more damage than good. If it is malfunctioning as it is now, consider sending it to someone like Tom "LugerDoc" with experience fitting Luger triggers. If it is functioning properly, why open up a potential bag of worms? Have the trigger hot blued if you don't like it as is. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-22-2018, 06:16 AM	#18
jussi16 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Finland Posts: 250 Thanks: 77 Thanked 51 Times in 31 Posts	The side plate does not look like an original part.