Help identification and value

cda_berbaro · 11-07-2014, 07:28 AM

Hi, what kind of luger is? Commercial persian, maybe? Singula serial number.
Many Thanks

DavidJayUden · 11-07-2014, 07:42 AM

This is a special gun so we will need to hear from more specialized collectors on the specifics. I will call it a commercial Navy model. The finish appears to be original, I'm just not certain if it would have came in 7.65 cal. or if it has been rebarrelled.
It is an interesting gun and we would like more photos, including the right side just behind the barrel , side shots of the magazine wooden bottom.
Is this yours?
david

alanint · 11-07-2014, 08:00 AM

Agreed that this is a Commercial Navy.

Unfortunately altered with an Italian-legal caliber change and refinished.

cda_berbaro · 11-07-2014, 08:01 AM

I'm valuating to buy, cal. 7.65 para. There is a mark under the barrel; what is?
the seller ask 3500 euro.

sheepherder · 11-07-2014, 08:03 AM

I don't know what it is...But I want one!

C/N on breechblock...Hmmmm...

DavidJayUden · 11-07-2014, 08:28 AM

I can only see 3 marks under the barrel, the caliber, the serial number and a tiny line that runs parallel to the bore called a Witness Mark. Is there something else?
I don't know the Euro. market, but these are quite expensive here in the USA, bringing much more money than a standard 4" barrel model.

Alan: I'm seeing a possible refinish in the first photo, the glare on the left side, but the close-ups look good, unbuffed at least. Are you basing it on the lack of halo's up front?

dju

cda_berbaro · 11-07-2014, 09:12 AM

photo

drbuster · 11-07-2014, 12:20 PM

Unusual luger! Note it has a short frame. Short frame commercial Navy type lugers were imported into the US in the 1920's, usually bearing 5 digit commercial serial numbers. The few I have seen are BUG proofed. This specimen has a 4 digit number with a suffix that I cannot make out. We are trying to explain a short framed grip saftey military to commercial with a replaced 30 caliber barrel. I feel it somehow came out of post WW1 1920 production when nothing was wasted and some strange and interesting lugers were assembled. I'm also not certain whether the Navy sight was added because it's hard to explain as an original production part.

cda_berbaro · 11-07-2014, 12:45 PM

According to me, i'm not expert, it's a very unusul gun. Barrel, receiver and mag, have the same serial number. According to Google, the commercial nay have a serial by 6 numbers. the sign near the serial number of the receivei is "Farsi number" (in persian) that is number 2.

DavidJayUden · 11-07-2014, 12:53 PM

I can't see that "Farsi number", but suspect that it is a standard small German letter "suffix".
The Farsi guns are usually fully marked in Farsi, not just as a suffix.
Can you get better photos of that figure and also the sides of the magazine base?
dju

cda_berbaro · 11-07-2014, 01:07 PM

i can't, it's not mine.

drbuster · 11-07-2014, 01:19 PM

Giuseppe, David is correct about the Farsi markings. Persian lugers had the Farsi numbers stamped all over the gun and are very obvious. The mark under the frame serial number is definitely a letter suffix, common with military lugers. If we are going to be able to further characterize this unusual luger, we will need more photos of different parts, such as the frame with the grips removed, view under the receiver, close ups of the right side of the receiver, etc. When we come upon lugers such as this one, many more things need to be seen to give a fair and accurate estimate of what it is and its value. My guess at this point as to its retail value would be somewhere between $2K-$2.5K as 30 caliber luger such as this are essentially shooters and 7.65 ammo is harder to come by and is more expensive than 9mm. Will you be able to get more photos later?

cda_berbaro · 11-07-2014, 01:50 PM

the seller will hate me, for this.

DavidJayUden · 11-07-2014, 02:00 PM

He will not hate you unless he is hiding something...
dju

George Anderson · 11-07-2014, 02:38 PM

The small crown/N proofs are 1920s Suhl proofs. Many strange Lugers came out of Suhl during the '20s.

Dwight Gruber · 11-07-2014, 06:08 PM

This is a made-up piece from more than a couple of pistols. Markings have been removed, so it is not possible to say too much about its origins from these photos--it would take hands-on inspection, or at least many specific close-up photos for more.

It appears that the breechblock may have an Erfurt proof. The pistol has been resurfaced and reblued.

As George notes, the proof marking style of the civilian proof house at Suhl definitely remove it from the possibility of DWM production.

I picked up a similar made-up Navy over the summer in 9mm Parabellum for $1,600 US.

--Dwight

11-07-2014, 07:28 AM	#1
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help identification and value Hi, what kind of luger is? Commercial persian, maybe? Singula serial number. Many Thanks Attached Thumbnails

11-07-2014, 08:03 AM	#5
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	I don't know what it is...But I want one! C/N on breechblock...Hmmmm... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-07-2014, 09:12 AM	#7
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	photo Attached Thumbnails

11-07-2014, 07:42 AM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	This is a special gun so we will need to hear from more specialized collectors on the specifics. I will call it a commercial Navy model. The finish appears to be original, I'm just not certain if it would have came in 7.65 cal. or if it has been rebarrelled. It is an interesting gun and we would like more photos, including the right side just behind the barrel , side shots of the magazine wooden bottom. Is this yours? david

11-07-2014, 08:00 AM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Agreed that this is a Commercial Navy. Unfortunately altered with an Italian-legal caliber change and refinished.

11-07-2014, 08:01 AM	#4
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm valuating to buy, cal. 7.65 para. There is a mark under the barrel; what is? the seller ask 3500 euro.

11-07-2014, 08:28 AM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I can only see 3 marks under the barrel, the caliber, the serial number and a tiny line that runs parallel to the bore called a Witness Mark. Is there something else? I don't know the Euro. market, but these are quite expensive here in the USA, bringing much more money than a standard 4" barrel model. Alan: I'm seeing a possible refinish in the first photo, the glare on the left side, but the close-ups look good, unbuffed at least. Are you basing it on the lack of halo's up front? dju

11-07-2014, 12:20 PM	#8
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Unusual luger! Note it has a short frame. Short frame commercial Navy type lugers were imported into the US in the 1920's, usually bearing 5 digit commercial serial numbers. The few I have seen are BUG proofed. This specimen has a 4 digit number with a suffix that I cannot make out. We are trying to explain a short framed grip saftey military to commercial with a replaced 30 caliber barrel. I feel it somehow came out of post WW1 1920 production when nothing was wasted and some strange and interesting lugers were assembled. I'm also not certain whether the Navy sight was added because it's hard to explain as an original production part.

11-07-2014, 12:45 PM	#9
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	According to me, i'm not expert, it's a very unusul gun. Barrel, receiver and mag, have the same serial number. According to Google, the commercial nay have a serial by 6 numbers. the sign near the serial number of the receivei is "Farsi number" (in persian) that is number 2.

11-07-2014, 12:53 PM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I can't see that "Farsi number", but suspect that it is a standard small German letter "suffix". The Farsi guns are usually fully marked in Farsi, not just as a suffix. Can you get better photos of that figure and also the sides of the magazine base? dju

11-07-2014, 01:07 PM	#11
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i can't, it's not mine.

11-07-2014, 01:19 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Giuseppe, David is correct about the Farsi markings. Persian lugers had the Farsi numbers stamped all over the gun and are very obvious. The mark under the frame serial number is definitely a letter suffix, common with military lugers. If we are going to be able to further characterize this unusual luger, we will need more photos of different parts, such as the frame with the grips removed, view under the receiver, close ups of the right side of the receiver, etc. When we come upon lugers such as this one, many more things need to be seen to give a fair and accurate estimate of what it is and its value. My guess at this point as to its retail value would be somewhere between $2K-$2.5K as 30 caliber luger such as this are essentially shooters and 7.65 ammo is harder to come by and is more expensive than 9mm. Will you be able to get more photos later?

11-07-2014, 01:50 PM	#13
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	the seller will hate me, for this.

11-07-2014, 02:00 PM	#14
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	He will not hate you unless he is hiding something... dju

11-07-2014, 02:38 PM	#15
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The small crown/N proofs are 1920s Suhl proofs. Many strange Lugers came out of Suhl during the '20s.

11-07-2014, 06:08 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	This is a made-up piece from more than a couple of pistols. Markings have been removed, so it is not possible to say too much about its origins from these photos--it would take hands-on inspection, or at least many specific close-up photos for more. It appears that the breechblock may have an Erfurt proof. The pistol has been resurfaced and reblued. As George notes, the proof marking style of the civilian proof house at Suhl definitely remove it from the possibility of DWM production. I picked up a similar made-up Navy over the summer in 9mm Parabellum for $1,600 US. --Dwight