another new luger owner needs help !

ESU · 07-01-2002, 01:27 PM

Hi, just picked up my 1st Luger after years of drooling. It's a 42 dated chamber, byf toggle. All external numbers appear to match . The bore is excellent but the weapon has been re-blued. I bought it as a shooter so I wasnt too concerned about the re-blue . Grips are a black plastic/bakelite and are unnumbered with no markings (aftermarket?) . Mag is an fxo 37 .My question is this , when retracting the toggle or lowering it slowly it can stay in sort of a half-**** position . Is this normal or is something amiss , weak mainspring maybe ? After firing it for the first time I had some stovepipes and/or extraction failures . It seemed to function better with hot loads . Would this also be normal ( liking hotter loads ?) I've given the gun a good cleaning and lubing and will go back to the range soon with a few diferent ammo types to see what happens. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated to keep this new luger owner happy. Also having some problems with a broomhandle if anybody has some ideas about those . Thx, Cory.

Herb · 07-01-2002, 01:33 PM

ESU, what you have described is normal, the toggles will stop with about 3/8" left to go if you ease them down. Yes. the Luger thrives on hotter loads, you are on right track by trying different brands, a lot of the guys like the Wolf ammo, apparently it works well. What is your C96 doing?

Thor · 07-01-2002, 01:50 PM

Sellor & Belliot make a moderate loading that would work well too. Do a search for Wolf ammo, posters have been mixed on this ammo. I use 124 gr UMC Remington and it works well for me but this is a standard pressure load and occasionally I get a Luger in that needs a bit more stuff. I usually just shoot some handloads or modify it for the ammo tested. Also check your mag spring to make sure it is strong. A weak worn out mag spring can potentially cause stovepipes and failure to activate the hold open device. Thor

Doubs · 07-01-2002, 02:06 PM

ESU, with the toggles in the mid-up position, if you grasp them and squeeze the trigger, you can lower the toggles and firing pin without snapping (dry firing) it. Or, if you like, simply squeeze the trigger and the toggles will snap down and the firing pin will also be lowered to an uncocked position. This, of course, is done without a cartridge in the chamber.

Some people in past years would carry the Luger with a cartridge in the chamber and the firing pin de-cocked. Raising the toggles to the mid-up position and lowering them again would **** the pistol. It was a dangerous practice and not one I'd suggest as the firing pin rested upon the primer.

Early Lugers had a long trigger bar that didn't permit opening the action while the safety was applied. To unload a chamber, the safety had to be disengaged and then the action was worked. Later Lugers... yours included.... had the trigger bar relieved to permit working the action while the safety was engaged and allowed removing a cartridge from the chamber with greater safety. The difference can easily be seen in pictures of early Lugers and later guns.

Roadkill · 07-01-2002, 02:21 PM

Welcome, congrats on the Luger. If you check in General Discussions at bottom of Forums there is a discussion reference C96s. Consensus is Lugers like hotter ammo or weaker mainsprings. I went for the latter in my shooter. I use the winchester target from walmart at $11.00 per 100 rds, clean- works great. Pay attention to the friction of the bolt on the inside rails. Take gun apart, remove toggle rear pin, then slide assy into rails locked straight feeling for tight spots. Can also blacken with a heavy duty magic marker then look for wear spots. Greasing the rails before shooting also helps. Took me three mainsprings,two new magazines, and a lot of fine tuning but it shoots great now.

RK

unspellable · 07-01-2002, 11:15 PM

Thor,

What do you mean by modifying the Luger for weaker ammo? Cutting the recoil spring? Replacing the recoil spring? Why not just use hotter ammo? What are the pros and cons?

unspellable

ESU · 07-01-2002, 11:21 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Herb:
<strong>ESU, what you have described is normal, the toggles will stop with about 3/8" left to go if you ease them down. Yes. the Luger thrives on hotter loads, you are on right track by trying different brands, a lot of the guys like the Wolf ammo, apparently it works well. What is your C96 doing?</strong><hr></blockquote>

ESU · 07-01-2002, 11:27 PM

1ST of all thx to all that answered. For Herb , my c96 mostly fails to return to full battery on occasion. Maybe every 3-4 rds. I sent away to Wolffs for a new spring set and replaced all the springs and I still get the same problem. The weapon is a non-matching #s 30cal mauser. I'm using Fiocchi ammo . A slight tap on the bolt will get it to return to battery . I've cleaned it and lubed it to no avail, ESU .

Herb · 07-02-2002, 12:04 AM

ESU, it sounds like the bolt is binding somewhere in the rails. Try disassembling it, then use a black 'magic marker' to cover the worn areas (where the blueing is gone) and then cycle the bolt several times. Take it apart again and see if there are areas where the marker is rubbed off. If there are some areas that would be where the binding is occurring. Try using a fine sand paper on the high spots, about a 400 grit, do it again and see what the results are. You may have to do this several times to get it leveled out, don't get in a hurry, if you over do it, big problem with the fit. Before doing the sanding try to determine if the bolt is the culprit or if the slide rails are causing it. You might try cleaning and blacking the entire bolt assembly on the first attempt, that should give you a good idea if there is a binding problem somewhere.

Thor · 07-02-2002, 07:54 AM

Unspellable, yes a little hotter load is probably the answer, or at least a first step, but so many people want to shoot the lighter loaded stuff like Winchesters 115 gr Walmart loading. If the gun will not lock back 5 times in a row, when fired with only one round loaded, the load is usually a little weak or ocassionaly there is internal binding, Removing a coil is not a bad thing IF you are trying to get the breech back far enough to lock each time (assuming the hold open is working right) BUT THE RUB COMES, this is not a panacea for all Lugers, you do that to a Luger with an already weaken spring and you run the chance of peening the toggle cams ears. It also is bad when this Luger goes to someone else to shoot and they pick up a box of hotter stuff with a now weakened spring, not the gun will be subject to too much stress. Finding a load that just locks the toggle back that you can afford is ideal. I usually have two loads with me when I head out to go shoot, The standard pressure stuff and a slightly hotter hand load. I seldom need the hotter round. Thor

unspellable · 07-03-2002, 01:03 AM

Thor,

My experiments with recoil springs are far from complete and the jury is still out, but the preliminary results make me think a long soft spring is better than a shiort stiff spring for light loads. Of course this begs the question of where you get the long soft spring, where as the short stiff one can be had by clipping the standard spring.

Also, while the hold open must reliably engage on the last round, I am thinking it takes a bit more than that. On the last round the magazine is empty. With one or more rounds in the magazine the top cartridge is pressed up against the underside of the block and adds drag on the back stroke.

We've run an analysis of the action and the recoil spring doesn't absorb anything like the whole of the energy imparted to the cannon by the cartridge impulse. The firing pin spring absorbs some, but a great deal more than you would think must be lost to friction. I think the top cartridge dragging on the underside of the breech block accounts for a lot of this. If you look, you'll see a streak of brass on the underside of the breechblock after a shooting session..

unspellable

Thor · 07-03-2002, 01:30 AM

yes, you are right about the brass streak, sometimes a real problem.

07-01-2002, 01:27 PM	#1
ESU User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NY Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	another new luger owner needs help ! Hi, just picked up my 1st Luger after years of drooling. It's a 42 dated chamber, byf toggle. All external numbers appear to match . The bore is excellent but the weapon has been re-blued. I bought it as a shooter so I wasnt too concerned about the re-blue . Grips are a black plastic/bakelite and are unnumbered with no markings (aftermarket?) . Mag is an fxo 37 .My question is this , when retracting the toggle or lowering it slowly it can stay in sort of a half-**** position . Is this normal or is something amiss , weak mainspring maybe ? After firing it for the first time I had some stovepipes and/or extraction failures . It seemed to function better with hot loads . Would this also be normal ( liking hotter loads ?) I've given the gun a good cleaning and lubing and will go back to the range soon with a few diferent ammo types to see what happens. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated to keep this new luger owner happy. Also having some problems with a broomhandle if anybody has some ideas about those . Thx, Cory.

07-01-2002, 01:33 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	ESU, what you have described is normal, the toggles will stop with about 3/8" left to go if you ease them down. Yes. the Luger thrives on hotter loads, you are on right track by trying different brands, a lot of the guys like the Wolf ammo, apparently it works well. What is your C96 doing? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-01-2002, 01:50 PM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Sellor & Belliot make a moderate loading that would work well too. Do a search for Wolf ammo, posters have been mixed on this ammo. I use 124 gr UMC Remington and it works well for me but this is a standard pressure load and occasionally I get a Luger in that needs a bit more stuff. I usually just shoot some handloads or modify it for the ammo tested. Also check your mag spring to make sure it is strong. A weak worn out mag spring can potentially cause stovepipes and failure to activate the hold open device. Thor __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-02-2002, 12:04 AM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	ESU, it sounds like the bolt is binding somewhere in the rails. Try disassembling it, then use a black 'magic marker' to cover the worn areas (where the blueing is gone) and then cycle the bolt several times. Take it apart again and see if there are areas where the marker is rubbed off. If there are some areas that would be where the binding is occurring. Try using a fine sand paper on the high spots, about a 400 grit, do it again and see what the results are. You may have to do this several times to get it leveled out, don't get in a hurry, if you over do it, big problem with the fit. Before doing the sanding try to determine if the bolt is the culprit or if the slide rails are causing it. You might try cleaning and blacking the entire bolt assembly on the first attempt, that should give you a good idea if there is a binding problem somewhere. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-02-2002, 07:54 AM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Unspellable, yes a little hotter load is probably the answer, or at least a first step, but so many people want to shoot the lighter loaded stuff like Winchesters 115 gr Walmart loading. If the gun will not lock back 5 times in a row, when fired with only one round loaded, the load is usually a little weak or ocassionaly there is internal binding, Removing a coil is not a bad thing IF you are trying to get the breech back far enough to lock each time (assuming the hold open is working right) BUT THE RUB COMES, this is not a panacea for all Lugers, you do that to a Luger with an already weaken spring and you run the chance of peening the toggle cams ears. It also is bad when this Luger goes to someone else to shoot and they pick up a box of hotter stuff with a now weakened spring, not the gun will be subject to too much stress. Finding a load that just locks the toggle back that you can afford is ideal. I usually have two loads with me when I head out to go shoot, The standard pressure stuff and a slightly hotter hand load. I seldom need the hotter round. Thor __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-01-2002, 02:06 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 771 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	ESU, with the toggles in the mid-up position, if you grasp them and squeeze the trigger, you can lower the toggles and firing pin without snapping (dry firing) it. Or, if you like, simply squeeze the trigger and the toggles will snap down and the firing pin will also be lowered to an uncocked position. This, of course, is done without a cartridge in the chamber. Some people in past years would carry the Luger with a cartridge in the chamber and the firing pin de-cocked. Raising the toggles to the mid-up position and lowering them again would **** the pistol. It was a dangerous practice and not one I'd suggest as the firing pin rested upon the primer. Early Lugers had a long trigger bar that didn't permit opening the action while the safety was applied. To unload a chamber, the safety had to be disengaged and then the action was worked. Later Lugers... yours included.... had the trigger bar relieved to permit working the action while the safety was engaged and allowed removing a cartridge from the chamber with greater safety. The difference can easily be seen in pictures of early Lugers and later guns.

07-01-2002, 02:21 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Welcome, congrats on the Luger. If you check in General Discussions at bottom of Forums there is a discussion reference C96s. Consensus is Lugers like hotter ammo or weaker mainsprings. I went for the latter in my shooter. I use the winchester target from walmart at $11.00 per 100 rds, clean- works great. Pay attention to the friction of the bolt on the inside rails. Take gun apart, remove toggle rear pin, then slide assy into rails locked straight feeling for tight spots. Can also blacken with a heavy duty magic marker then look for wear spots. Greasing the rails before shooting also helps. Took me three mainsprings,two new magazines, and a lot of fine tuning but it shoots great now. RK

07-01-2002, 11:15 PM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Thor, What do you mean by modifying the Luger for weaker ammo? Cutting the recoil spring? Replacing the recoil spring? Why not just use hotter ammo? What are the pros and cons? unspellable

07-01-2002, 11:21 PM	#7
ESU User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NY Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Herb: <strong>ESU, what you have described is normal, the toggles will stop with about 3/8" left to go if you ease them down. Yes. the Luger thrives on hotter loads, you are on right track by trying different brands, a lot of the guys like the Wolf ammo, apparently it works well. What is your C96 doing?</strong><hr></blockquote>

07-01-2002, 11:27 PM	#8
ESU User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NY Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1ST of all thx to all that answered. For Herb , my c96 mostly fails to return to full battery on occasion. Maybe every 3-4 rds. I sent away to Wolffs for a new spring set and replaced all the springs and I still get the same problem. The weapon is a non-matching #s 30cal mauser. I'm using Fiocchi ammo . A slight tap on the bolt will get it to return to battery . I've cleaned it and lubed it to no avail, ESU .

07-03-2002, 01:03 AM	#11
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Thor, My experiments with recoil springs are far from complete and the jury is still out, but the preliminary results make me think a long soft spring is better than a shiort stiff spring for light loads. Of course this begs the question of where you get the long soft spring, where as the short stiff one can be had by clipping the standard spring. Also, while the hold open must reliably engage on the last round, I am thinking it takes a bit more than that. On the last round the magazine is empty. With one or more rounds in the magazine the top cartridge is pressed up against the underside of the block and adds drag on the back stroke. We've run an analysis of the action and the recoil spring doesn't absorb anything like the whole of the energy imparted to the cannon by the cartridge impulse. The firing pin spring absorbs some, but a great deal more than you would think must be lost to friction. I think the top cartridge dragging on the underside of the breech block accounts for a lot of this. If you look, you'll see a streak of brass on the underside of the breechblock after a shooting session.. unspellable

07-03-2002, 01:30 AM	#12
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	yes, you are right about the brass streak, sometimes a real problem. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."