1913 commercial ??

[Frank H]

Is this a 1913 Commercial?? #72646, crown N proofed, like the one in Kenyon on page 120-121. The safety is polished and NO stock lug.?? This came with a brown commercial holster, pin punch, loading tool, cleaning rod and extra wood based mag. This came out of an estate sale. Six known, could this be #7. Thanks









ADMIN: Edited by EBT

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc001s_copy9.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc002s_copy8.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc003s_copy5.jpg

let see if this works--now I know why Tom A has a hard time with this!

[Edward Tinker]

Frank, I moved your pictures around, hope that was okay.
Looks like a nice gun, but I can't tell you the info that you're looking for!

Ed

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Frank H.,

What a great find...is this rig yours ? Congratulations...if it is!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

In both the LAR book by Kenyon and the IL book by Still; both 1913's shown and described indicate a 1913 Commercial should have a stock lug.

On page 76 of Kenyon's 2nd. book, L-TMNP; he shows a 1906 Commecial, says it came in both 4-3/4" bbl and 4" bbl, ran in the 25050 to 70000 serial number range, has a polished area under the thumb safety, and did not have a stock lug.

If you do not have this book, I would be happy to email you a scan of the text and photo (gun shown is a 4" bbl) of the 1906 Commercial. Just send me your email to "pebbink@pacbell.net"...I would post it here...but the book's copyright is still in place.

I am also not 100% sure on this...but I think a 1913 Commercial would not have the polished area under the thumb safety and would have "Gesichert" at the upper position...I will let one of the "seasoned" Imperial collectors advise you (and me...) otherwise...

If yours is a 1913 and not a 1906...is there evidence the stock lug was ground off and bluing refinished ? I heard guys did this in the 1960's when they thought new gun laws prohibited such lugs...

p.s. Please do not make us all sick and tell us you found this great rig for only $1200...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

This is another one of those enigmas that turn up from time to time. It is definitely a 1906 9mm pattern Luger, but the serial number is WAY out of range. Published serial number ranges are based on observed examples and a lot of experience on the part of the individual authors that compile and publish the information. In all probability, a â??typeâ?� Luger will fall within these expected rangesâ?¦but there always seems to be an exception. For example, Kenyon states that 1914 Commercials were in the 71500-73500 range, but I once owned #74745. To top that off, Still has serial number 74745 listed as a 7.65mm, but it is actually 9mm! (no kidding, I owned it and I know that for a fact).

Peteâ??s description of a 1913 Commercial is correct with respect to the accepted configuration of that model. I have #71247 and it has a stock lug and is marked GESICHERT in the upper position. (By the way, I donâ??t think mine is one of the â??6 reportedâ?� in Kenyon, so I suspect there are a few more around)

So where does that leave us? Truthfully, I donâ??t know, but my guesses would be:

1. A special order that requested a no stock lug configuration that was constructed in the 1913 timeframe, hence the late serial number, but made up from 1906 components on hand.

2. A rework of a â??realâ?� 1913 Commercial that someone thought was â??incorrectâ?� since it had a grip safety therefore it â??shouldâ?� also have a polished safety and not have a stock lug. This is unlikely unless there is evidence that the stock lug has been ground and the GESICHERT welded up and obliterated.

3. A deliberate fake designed to create an ultra rare variation.

This example, #72646, is a lovely looking weapon, and from the pictures appears to be authentic. Pending answers to Peteâ??s ground stock lug question and my thought on an obliterated GESICHERT, I would venture that guess #1 is the most likely and Frank owns #7 (or #8, or #9â?¦.?) known 1913 Commercial.

Great looking rig Frank. Congratulations.

[Frank H]

Stock lug is NOT ground off, and the GESIHERT is in the upper position and polished lower. The serial number - made me wonder where it belongs. Thank you for your thoughts and information. As usual - a big help.

[drbuster]

Very interesting information, guys, on the gun, which is just super. BUT what a great 4" barrel commercial holster! The only thing I could think of that would make it better would be to have the buckle leather covered! A very rare and desirable rig!

[Pete Ebbink]

I am a bit confused on the gun having both the "polished" safety marking and the "Gesichert" marking.

When a polished safety marking is exposed on a 1906, the lever is up and the safety is "on".

If the Gesichert marking is exposed in the upper position (i.e. with the lever in the down position), does it not mean the gun is also in the "safe" mode. How can this lever be in either position and both be in the "safe" mode...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

Having the GESICHERT marking makes an entirely different consideration necessary. That would seem to indicate that the grip safety was added to this piece after production. I have an odd "Swiss" Luger (cross in sunburst is on the forward toggle link and the chamber is blank) in 9mm that was modified this way. It has the GESICHERT marking in the upper position, but is actually on safe with the thumb safety in the upper position concealing the GESICHERT marking. The lower safety area is not polished on my Luger however. It was modified by welding in a web in the lower grip area to mount the grip safety and spring. There is no stock lug and the grip is of full contour, which would appear to indicate that a stock lug was not ground off. But possibly the area was built up with weld when the web was added.

I would suggest looking to see if this Luger has been so modified, and if you have another original grip safety Luger closely comparing the contours and thickness of the bottom of the grip adjacent to the magazine opening. Pictures of the grip frame with the grip safety removed and of the bottom of the grip showing the magazine opening would be of interest.

If it has not been modifed then I am at a loss to explain the safety marking and you have a very unusual variation indeed.

[Frank H]

NO - "GEISHERT", in the upper position. I was trying to get this typed before I boarded up the house for the hurricane. I'll get more pics.

[Navy]

Saw this rig in Charlotte. It is righteous.
Tom A.

[Big Norm]

If this was a 1906, wouldn't it have a long frame instead of Tom's short frame?
Big Norm

[Ron Wood]

Only the very early 1906 models had the long frame, from about 25100 to 26xxx serial number range with possibly a few scattered above that range. Many of these early '06 long frames will be GESICHERT marked in the lower position and the thought is that they may have been made up from left over '06 Navy frames. After DWM started cranking out 9mm 1906 pieces, all the '06s thereafter pretty much had the short frame.

Tom, I trust your eyes a lot, but the presence of the GESICHERT marking in the upper position along with the polished lower safety area is pretty far out of line for a righteous piece. A closer look at the grip safety area with the grips removed would add a lot of comfort to declaring this example truly original and unique.

[Navy]

Ron,
The gun was looked at by Charlie Kenyon and Ralph Shattuck; both pronounced it good.

Tom A.

[Ron Wood]

Just got a PM from Frank H and he has clarified that there is no GESICHERT marking, only the polished lower position. That makes it right. He's got a good gun. I was thrown off by his earlier post that "the GESICHERT is in the upper position", when he was actually intending to indicate that the piece is on safe (gesichert) when the thumb safety is in the upper position. I'm back to my #1 guess, a special order 1913 Commercial. An excellent rig and a marvelous find. Break out the bubbly and toast this one. We should all be so lucky.

[Big Norm]

I guess that I have been looking at too many navy frames. There, they stayed with the long frames until the 1908 commercials and then they went both ways. But then I started looking at my non navy 1906 Lugers. They were all long frames until I hit my Portugese M2's and those were short frames. Then I looked at pictures of 1906's in Kenyon's book and dang if Ron Wood isn't correct.
Big Norm

[Frank H]

[Edward Tinker]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Big Norm:
<strong>...and dang if Ron Wood isn't correct....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yup, havn't known this man to be wrong very often, if at all!

[Frank H]

This rig is for sale, don't be afflicted with sticker shock---asking $5k