1928 Dutch just purchaed your opinion please !!

Mike B · 08-05-2005, 05:40 PM

Well guys, I bought what I call a 1923 Dutch commercial. But I am from the old school. I paid $2200.00 for what the seller also called a 1923 Dutch commercial. I have been informed by one of the more respected authorities in the field (forum member), that this Luger is more properly termed a 1928 Dutch Navy. The Luger was described as 99% original mint finish-collection grade. I have spotted a few Ã¢??issuesÃ¢?Â. I would like to post a few pictures and ask for the forum members to tell me if they think this is truly a collector grade Luger. Here are a few things I have found; some you cannot see in the pictures, some you might see. The grips are not stamped. The magazine appears to have been sanded down or otherwise smoothed over. The extractor, although it is properly marked on both sides, does not match the rest of the toggle color-wise, and therefore, it appears to have been replaced. I am anxious to receive your honest opinions regarding these concerns. I have a three day inspection privilege on this Luger. I can post additional pictures if necessary. Thanks again, Mike

Dwight Gruber · 08-05-2005, 06:45 PM

Mike,

1928 Navy is a good call, I think. Schwing's "Standard Catalog" calls these 1923 Commercial and Military, claiming that the first 1000, made by DWM (BKIW) were available in the Netherlands to both the Military and Commercial sales. He goes on to assert that the next 400 pistols, proofed with a c/c/U proof, were made by Mauser for Dutch Air Force delivery. He appears to have gotten his information straight from Kenyon, who at least took a look at the guns' characteristics and allowed as how they may be purely military guns.

Martens & De Vries (The Dutch Luger) more appropriately call them 1928 Navy, for the year that the Dutch Navy adopted the pistol and took their first delivery. According to August Weiss, 77 pistols were delivered in July 1 1928, 492 pistols in Feb. 1929, 515 pistols in July 1929, and 400 pieces in Jan. 1930. This puts your Luger in the second delivery. Serial numbers ran from 1 through 1484, and these pistols were proofed with the c/N commercial proof.

I don't know what to tell you about the "look" of the extractor, although GELADEN on both sides is proper, as you note. I don't know about the lack of grip numbers, but Martens & De Vries (p.145) show a Mauser-produced 1928 Dutch Navy (the next contract delivery, c/c/U proof) #1714 with exactly that profile grip-top cut under the side plate.

The serial numbers on the bottom of the barrel are curious, and I am curious to know if there is a c/U there.

For the sake of comparison, here is a link to one of these pistols for sale at Simpson, Ltd: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2218 See if you think the finish of the extractor looks different from the rest of the breechblock.

--Dwight

Navy · 08-06-2005, 08:32 AM

I'd be axin for my money back.

Tom A.

Lugerdoc · 08-06-2005, 10:14 AM

Mike, I agree that the fit of your extractor to the breech block is not original. The extractor should have the last 2 digits of the serial stamped inside. Also, the markings on barrel and received are a bit light, which leads me to believe that this pistol has been refinished sometime in its life. This is not too much of a problem on Dutch and Swiss lugers, as both countries had regular arsenal rehab programs, so the value is not a affected as on most other models. TH

Vlim · 08-06-2005, 10:30 AM

Hi,

You can drop the 1923 Dutch Commercial phrase. Handguns have been outlawed for decades over here and there is no such thing as a Dutch commercial Luger.

The Dutch military purchases for the KNIL and Navy were commercially stamped pistols in the 1906 Pattern with grip safety for the KNIL, and the standard P08-style pistol with commercial stamping for the Navy.

This pistol, falling in the Navy category, DWM labeled but Mauser assembled, should have a crown-U marking (or the remains of it) on the barrel. Could be removed by a rework phase somewhere in the past. I agree the extractor looks kinda 'off' and I suggest examining the right side 'GELADEN' marking. Could be that someone created a 'Dutch' extractor.

A nice pistol, but with some question marks. Price may have been lower.

Ron Wood · 08-06-2005, 11:05 AM

I think the 99% finish is a bit optimistic. Judging from what appears to be a genuine patina, I would say that the finish is original, but original arsenal rework Ã¢?? not factory original. The Ã¢??thinÃ¢?Â barrel serial number is enough indication that it has been refinished at least once. Remember, as Lugerdoc has pointed out, the Dutch refurbished their Lugers on a fairly regular basis, and an arsenal refinish does not detract from the value. This Luger was made by DWM/BKIW before Mauser started making them. The grips are Mauser profile and I suspect they are Mauser made replacements provided as spares after Mauser took over production of the Dutch contract. Gerben has a good point about the extractor. Make sure both sides are stamped GELADEN and not engraved (once upon a time an attempt was made to sell me a 100% Dutch Luger that had GELADEN engraved on the right sideÃ¢?Â¦and that was only one of the problems with the gun). If the extractor is genuine, it is probably worth $200 by itself. I wouldnÃ¢??t worry about it, as it very well may also be a later Mauser replacement. The unnumbered hold open is also of no particular concern. Of all my Dutch Lugers, only the Vickers has a numbered hold open.

Dutch navy is not an easy piece to come by and this one is in reasonably comfortable condition. It is up to you, but depending on how comfortable you are with it I am not sure I would ax for my money backÃ¢?Â¦unless of course Tom has a better one he will sell you for the same money.

Dwight Gruber · 08-06-2005, 12:29 PM

Ron, or Gerben,

Do you know if the Dutch Navy guns were subject to the same kind of rework program the Indonesian guns went through?

--Dwight

Vlim · 08-06-2005, 02:00 PM

Dwight,

Excellent question. I don't recall the existance of any documentation on Navy rework programs, though. It would seem obvious, though. Especially if the guns were used on vessels (or with units) based in the East-Indies.

Mike B · 08-06-2005, 02:27 PM

Thanks to all for the tremendous amount of information and great advice. If I can say any one thing to reply to the current question, the extractor is stamped "GELADEN" on the left side and on the right side equally. There are many facets that have been covered in a short amount of time, I am so very thankful. There is little doubt that I am not going to return the Luger, just as there is little doubt the Luger was not correctly represented. So, the forum did it's job and thanks so much. I had much hesitation yesterday not knowing which direction to take. After reading all the posts, there is a clear message; keep it. The three day inspecton period is almost over. Thanks again to all, Mike

Dwight Gruber · 08-06-2005, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren
Hi,

You can drop the 1923 Dutch Commercial phrase. Handguns have been outlawed for decades over here and there is no such thing as a Dutch commercial Luger.

Gerben, very interesting, when exactly did these laws take effect?

--Dwight

Vlim · 08-07-2005, 09:03 AM

Hi Dwight.

The first law became effective in 1890. An updated version appeared after World War 1 (for obvious reasons, although the Dutch remained neutral, the number of firearms that entered the country was a major concearn). The law was updated in 1919 and again after WW2 in 1946. In 1965 the law was modified in order to get rid of 'unwanted' firearms, that is firearms that cannot be used for normal recreative use, like very small caliber pocket pistols, riot guns, full-auto firearms and those with folding buttstocks. The current law is based upon a 1989 revision, which united all the little laws and regulations in one new law.

Basically it states that no-one may carry or own firearms unless they have a valid reason. If there is a valid reason, the local police may supply the requestor with a permit. The number of reasons seen as valid have been subject to constant revision and change.

At the moment, private citizens may obtain a license for sports shooting and hunting only, which is limited to guns that can be used for sports shooting disciplines and hunting purposes. No full-auto firearm can ever be obtained by a private person on a sports shooting license. Collecting permits are just about impossible, only for museums, etc.. Of course gun shops have a valid reason to obtain a permit.

There is one, I think righteous, exception and that is that resistance veterans who fought in WW2, could obtain a license to keep their WW2 firearms.

In order to stay true to our trading nature, there are exceptions for the trafficing of firearms

08-06-2005, 10:14 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Mike, I agree that the fit of your extractor to the breech block is not original. The extractor should have the last 2 digits of the serial stamped inside. Also, the markings on barrel and received are a bit light, which leads me to believe that this pistol has been refinished sometime in its life. This is not too much of a problem on Dutch and Swiss lugers, as both countries had regular arsenal rehab programs, so the value is not a affected as on most other models. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-06-2005, 11:05 AM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,010 Thanks: 1,088 Thanked 5,149 Times in 1,694 Posts	I think the 99% finish is a bit optimistic. Judging from what appears to be a genuine patina, I would say that the finish is original, but original arsenal rework Ã¢?? not factory original. The Ã¢??thinÃ¢?Â barrel serial number is enough indication that it has been refinished at least once. Remember, as Lugerdoc has pointed out, the Dutch refurbished their Lugers on a fairly regular basis, and an arsenal refinish does not detract from the value. This Luger was made by DWM/BKIW before Mauser started making them. The grips are Mauser profile and I suspect they are Mauser made replacements provided as spares after Mauser took over production of the Dutch contract. Gerben has a good point about the extractor. Make sure both sides are stamped GELADEN and not engraved (once upon a time an attempt was made to sell me a 100% Dutch Luger that had GELADEN engraved on the right sideÃ¢?Â¦and that was only one of the problems with the gun). If the extractor is genuine, it is probably worth $200 by itself. I wouldnÃ¢??t worry about it, as it very well may also be a later Mauser replacement. The unnumbered hold open is also of no particular concern. Of all my Dutch Lugers, only the Vickers has a numbered hold open. Dutch navy is not an easy piece to come by and this one is in reasonably comfortable condition. It is up to you, but depending on how comfortable you are with it I am not sure I would ax for my money backÃ¢?Â¦unless of course Tom has a better one he will sell you for the same money. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-05-2005, 05:40 PM	#1
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	1928 Dutch just purchaed your opinion please !! Well guys, I bought what I call a 1923 Dutch commercial. But I am from the old school. I paid $2200.00 for what the seller also called a 1923 Dutch commercial. I have been informed by one of the more respected authorities in the field (forum member), that this Luger is more properly termed a 1928 Dutch Navy. The Luger was described as 99% original mint finish-collection grade. I have spotted a few Ã¢??issuesÃ¢?Â. I would like to post a few pictures and ask for the forum members to tell me if they think this is truly a collector grade Luger. Here are a few things I have found; some you cannot see in the pictures, some you might see. The grips are not stamped. The magazine appears to have been sanded down or otherwise smoothed over. The extractor, although it is properly marked on both sides, does not match the rest of the toggle color-wise, and therefore, it appears to have been replaced. I am anxious to receive your honest opinions regarding these concerns. I have a three day inspection privilege on this Luger. I can post additional pictures if necessary. Thanks again, Mike

08-05-2005, 06:45 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,894 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Mike, 1928 Navy is a good call, I think. Schwing's "Standard Catalog" calls these 1923 Commercial and Military, claiming that the first 1000, made by DWM (BKIW) were available in the Netherlands to both the Military and Commercial sales. He goes on to assert that the next 400 pistols, proofed with a c/c/U proof, were made by Mauser for Dutch Air Force delivery. He appears to have gotten his information straight from Kenyon, who at least took a look at the guns' characteristics and allowed as how they may be purely military guns. Martens & De Vries (The Dutch Luger) more appropriately call them 1928 Navy, for the year that the Dutch Navy adopted the pistol and took their first delivery. According to August Weiss, 77 pistols were delivered in July 1 1928, 492 pistols in Feb. 1929, 515 pistols in July 1929, and 400 pieces in Jan. 1930. This puts your Luger in the second delivery. Serial numbers ran from 1 through 1484, and these pistols were proofed with the c/N commercial proof. I don't know what to tell you about the "look" of the extractor, although GELADEN on both sides is proper, as you note. I don't know about the lack of grip numbers, but Martens & De Vries (p.145) show a Mauser-produced 1928 Dutch Navy (the next contract delivery, c/c/U proof) #1714 with exactly that profile grip-top cut under the side plate. The serial numbers on the bottom of the barrel are curious, and I am curious to know if there is a c/U there. For the sake of comparison, here is a link to one of these pistols for sale at Simpson, Ltd: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2218 See if you think the finish of the extractor looks different from the rest of the breechblock. --Dwight

08-06-2005, 08:32 AM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I'd be axin for my money back. Tom A.

08-06-2005, 10:30 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, You can drop the 1923 Dutch Commercial phrase. Handguns have been outlawed for decades over here and there is no such thing as a Dutch commercial Luger. The Dutch military purchases for the KNIL and Navy were commercially stamped pistols in the 1906 Pattern with grip safety for the KNIL, and the standard P08-style pistol with commercial stamping for the Navy. This pistol, falling in the Navy category, DWM labeled but Mauser assembled, should have a crown-U marking (or the remains of it) on the barrel. Could be removed by a rework phase somewhere in the past. I agree the extractor looks kinda 'off' and I suggest examining the right side 'GELADEN' marking. Could be that someone created a 'Dutch' extractor. A nice pistol, but with some question marks. Price may have been lower.

08-06-2005, 12:29 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,894 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Ron, or Gerben, Do you know if the Dutch Navy guns were subject to the same kind of rework program the Indonesian guns went through? --Dwight

08-06-2005, 02:00 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Dwight, Excellent question. I don't recall the existance of any documentation on Navy rework programs, though. It would seem obvious, though. Especially if the guns were used on vessels (or with units) based in the East-Indies.

08-06-2005, 02:27 PM	#9
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Thanks to all for the tremendous amount of information and great advice. If I can say any one thing to reply to the current question, the extractor is stamped "GELADEN" on the left side and on the right side equally. There are many facets that have been covered in a short amount of time, I am so very thankful. There is little doubt that I am not going to return the Luger, just as there is little doubt the Luger was not correctly represented. So, the forum did it's job and thanks so much. I had much hesitation yesterday not knowing which direction to take. After reading all the posts, there is a clear message; keep it. The three day inspecton period is almost over. Thanks again to all, Mike

08-07-2005, 09:03 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Dwight. The first law became effective in 1890. An updated version appeared after World War 1 (for obvious reasons, although the Dutch remained neutral, the number of firearms that entered the country was a major concearn). The law was updated in 1919 and again after WW2 in 1946. In 1965 the law was modified in order to get rid of 'unwanted' firearms, that is firearms that cannot be used for normal recreative use, like very small caliber pocket pistols, riot guns, full-auto firearms and those with folding buttstocks. The current law is based upon a 1989 revision, which united all the little laws and regulations in one new law. Basically it states that no-one may carry or own firearms unless they have a valid reason. If there is a valid reason, the local police may supply the requestor with a permit. The number of reasons seen as valid have been subject to constant revision and change. At the moment, private citizens may obtain a license for sports shooting and hunting only, which is limited to guns that can be used for sports shooting disciplines and hunting purposes. No full-auto firearm can ever be obtained by a private person on a sports shooting license. Collecting permits are just about impossible, only for museums, etc.. Of course gun shops have a valid reason to obtain a permit. There is one, I think righteous, exception and that is that resistance veterans who fought in WW2, could obtain a license to keep their WW2 firearms. In order to stay true to our trading nature, there are exceptions for the trafficing of firearms