Help requested for Lugers ID

Rugger · 07-26-2007, 01:46 PM

I am currently in the process of examining certain weapons being offered to me for sale. I have come across the following pistols and would appreciate your help in identifying them:

The first is a Luger pistol marked 1913 over the chamber, blued, with a short barrel of approx. between 21/2" and 3". It is marked MSJR over the dissasembly lever.

The second is also a Luger pistol, marked 1937 over the chamber, marked JWM, and marked MSJR over the dissasembly lever. The pistol is in .45ACP caliber and has an approx. 4" barrel. The pistol appears to be in matte stainless steel.

There is third pistol with respect to which there might be someone out there who might help. It is a Walther p38 which appears very common; however, it is in .45ACP caliber. It has a glossy black finish.

Any information regarding an ID of these pistols will be greatly appreciated.

Best regards.

Vlim · 07-26-2007, 01:56 PM

Hi,

It looks like you have a couple of Martz pistols. John Martz was (and is) a very good gunsmith, specializing in P38's and Lugers. He did a decent number of 45 ACP conversions.

John Sabato · 07-27-2007, 04:31 PM

The Martz conversion pistols are well known for their quality... John Martz is still practicing his gunsmith trade and is getting on in years. I believe that his Luger and P-38 conversions will climb in collector value once he is gone...

His work that looks like stainless is actually a matte finish bare steel finish that he popularized... make sure you keep those oiled...

I was not aware that any of his work was ever exported... you should feel lucky to have been exposed to them in Latin America... If you have the money and the inclination, I would definitely add them to your collection.

Please post photographs of these pistols if you have the chance to take some...

Dwight Gruber · 07-27-2007, 08:04 PM

Actually, there is another Martz gun out of South America, a trashed frame that was once a Luger carbine conversion. It may have been discussed on this Forum quite a few months ago.

If I remember correctly--I can't find a reference right now--the MSJR (is it MSTR?) signifies a modification patented by John Martz by which an open toggle closes when a loaded magazine is inserted into the gun.

On the short barrelled Luger, check to see if the grip is as long as a standard Luger grip. Martz has made a number of "baby Lugers" with short barrels and shortened grips and magazines which only hold 5 or 6 rounds.

The Martz .45 conversions are made up of two frames cut in half so that they separate front-to-back. They are cut unequally, so that when the appropriate halves are welded back together the grip is lengthened to accomodate the increased length of the .45 ACP cartridge. The toggle pieces are lengthened similarly, as is the receiver extension. New breechblocks are made from scratch.

John Martz alters Lugers to other calibers and configurations, and makes standard P-38 and P-38 Carbines in .45 ACP as well. Can't tell you anything about the P-38s.

In near-mint condition the Martz Baby Luger (if that is what it is) might sell for more than $3,000 and the .45 might sell for more than $5,000 in the U.S.

--Dwight

Rugger · 07-27-2007, 09:42 PM

Thank you very much for the great information. I will post pictures next week as a professional photographer will take the pictures at that time.

Best regards,

Rugger

Lugerdoc · 07-30-2007, 12:12 PM

MSTR = Martz Safety Toggle Release. Designed to lower toggle or load a round from the held open position, by just placing the safety lever in the SAFE position. TH

Rugger · 08-02-2007, 05:46 PM

These are pictures of the three weapons I am referring to. Each is beign offered to me for sale at $5000.00; all are in pristine condition. I would be grateful for your input on whether these are indeed conversions by Mr. Martz and on whether the price seems adequate. Thanks in advance for your help. Best regards.

http://mx.geocities.com/rugg_001

Dwight Gruber · 08-02-2007, 07:07 PM

Miguel,

All three are indeed John Martz conversions. $5,000 for the .45 Luger is truly a bargain.

--Dwight

Steinar · 08-03-2007, 04:53 AM

How these pistols is offered as 'un-identified' puzzles me..
It has been some years, but it's not a lifetime since they where made.
..and started their lifes with a high value.

So I would be cautious on the deal if the seller does not know what they are.

..that would be my 2 Ã?Â¸re

Rugger · 08-03-2007, 03:56 PM

Thank you all for the great help! The weapons are being offered to me as a result of my organizing and valuating a 400 plus piece collection. The owners are fully aware of this correspondence and the nature of the pistols. I will be increasing my valuation (and thus the price) of these pistols as follows: US$10,000.00 for the .45 Luger, $5,000.00 each for the baby Luger and the P-38. Would you say this would be a "fair" (both to purchaser and seller) price for the weapons? Thanks again for your help.

Best regards,

07-26-2007, 01:46 PM	#1
Rugger User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Latin America Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Help requested for Lugers ID I am currently in the process of examining certain weapons being offered to me for sale. I have come across the following pistols and would appreciate your help in identifying them: The first is a Luger pistol marked 1913 over the chamber, blued, with a short barrel of approx. between 21/2" and 3". It is marked MSJR over the dissasembly lever. The second is also a Luger pistol, marked 1937 over the chamber, marked JWM, and marked MSJR over the dissasembly lever. The pistol is in .45ACP caliber and has an approx. 4" barrel. The pistol appears to be in matte stainless steel. There is third pistol with respect to which there might be someone out there who might help. It is a Walther p38 which appears very common; however, it is in .45ACP caliber. It has a glossy black finish. Any information regarding an ID of these pistols will be greatly appreciated. Best regards. __________________ Rugger

07-27-2007, 04:31 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The Martz conversion pistols are well known for their quality... John Martz is still practicing his gunsmith trade and is getting on in years. I believe that his Luger and P-38 conversions will climb in collector value once he is gone... His work that looks like stainless is actually a matte finish bare steel finish that he popularized... make sure you keep those oiled... I was not aware that any of his work was ever exported... you should feel lucky to have been exposed to them in Latin America... If you have the money and the inclination, I would definitely add them to your collection. Please post photographs of these pistols if you have the chance to take some... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-27-2007, 09:42 PM	#5
Rugger User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Latin America Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks to all Thank you very much for the great information. I will post pictures next week as a professional photographer will take the pictures at that time. Best regards, Rugger __________________ Rugger

07-30-2007, 12:12 PM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	MSTR = Martz Safety Toggle Release. Designed to lower toggle or load a round from the held open position, by just placing the safety lever in the SAFE position. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-02-2007, 05:46 PM	#7
Rugger User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Latin America Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Photos These are pictures of the three weapons I am referring to. Each is beign offered to me for sale at $5000.00; all are in pristine condition. I would be grateful for your input on whether these are indeed conversions by Mr. Martz and on whether the price seems adequate. Thanks in advance for your help. Best regards. http://mx.geocities.com/rugg_001 __________________ Rugger

07-26-2007, 01:56 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, It looks like you have a couple of Martz pistols. John Martz was (and is) a very good gunsmith, specializing in P38's and Lugers. He did a decent number of 45 ACP conversions.

07-27-2007, 08:04 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Actually, there is another Martz gun out of South America, a trashed frame that was once a Luger carbine conversion. It may have been discussed on this Forum quite a few months ago. If I remember correctly--I can't find a reference right now--the MSJR (is it MSTR?) signifies a modification patented by John Martz by which an open toggle closes when a loaded magazine is inserted into the gun. On the short barrelled Luger, check to see if the grip is as long as a standard Luger grip. Martz has made a number of "baby Lugers" with short barrels and shortened grips and magazines which only hold 5 or 6 rounds. The Martz .45 conversions are made up of two frames cut in half so that they separate front-to-back. They are cut unequally, so that when the appropriate halves are welded back together the grip is lengthened to accomodate the increased length of the .45 ACP cartridge. The toggle pieces are lengthened similarly, as is the receiver extension. New breechblocks are made from scratch. John Martz alters Lugers to other calibers and configurations, and makes standard P-38 and P-38 Carbines in .45 ACP as well. Can't tell you anything about the P-38s. In near-mint condition the Martz Baby Luger (if that is what it is) might sell for more than $3,000 and the .45 might sell for more than $5,000 in the U.S. --Dwight

08-02-2007, 07:07 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Miguel, All three are indeed John Martz conversions. $5,000 for the .45 Luger is truly a bargain. --Dwight

08-03-2007, 04:53 AM	#9
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	How these pistols is offered as 'un-identified' puzzles me.. It has been some years, but it's not a lifetime since they where made. ..and started their lifes with a high value. So I would be cautious on the deal if the seller does not know what they are. ..that would be my 2 Ã?Â¸re __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

08-03-2007, 03:56 PM	#10
Rugger User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Latin America Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thank you all for the great help! The weapons are being offered to me as a result of my organizing and valuating a 400 plus piece collection. The owners are fully aware of this correspondence and the nature of the pistols. I will be increasing my valuation (and thus the price) of these pistols as follows: US$10,000.00 for the .45 Luger, $5,000.00 each for the baby Luger and the P-38. Would you say this would be a "fair" (both to purchaser and seller) price for the weapons? Thanks again for your help. Best regards, __________________ Rugger