1906 DWM Swiss Commercial - need opinions

Geo99 · 11-29-2013, 03:06 PM

Hello friends,

I am looking at a 1906 DWM Swiss Commercial SN 48877, BUG proofed on barrel, BU proofed on left side, short frame, 7.65, unmarked wood mag, with what appears to be all original finish. I believe the SN falls in the correct 35000-55000 range for this scarce pistol (only about 1000 were made)?

I am thinking of trying to buy this. I know about WWI guns, but not so much about 1900-1906 models, so I need some expert opinion on some areas of concern. Basically I need to know if it looks all original (I know you can't always tell from pics, but I think it is).

1. The barrel has a second SN stamp (173xx) - what is this?
I have seen this on some other 1906 Swiss - was it done when they put the BUG proofs on it?

2. I did not think a commercial gun should have barrel SN halos - am I wrong? The pistol SN on the barrel has halos (the other number does too, but if that was part of the BUG proof, then it makes sense that it would have halo).

3. The safety area that is ground white looks fat and short to me. Most of the other ones I've seen are a little narrower and extend up past the dimple in the frame. But it is rusted/tarnished in that area so it appears old.

4. Grip safety looks very clean with almost no wear, but the bore is very good too.

5. The holster is definitely not original, but what is it? Late 1920s commercial?

Thanks,
- Geo

lugersrkewl · 11-29-2013, 05:23 PM

wow that thing is mint for over 100 years old. thats like 99.7% condition. I dont know jack about lugers but that doesnt look like a weimar period holster.

Stucki · 11-30-2013, 03:29 AM

thats a typical Swiss Army holster for Models 1900 and 1900/06. It should have a stamp on the back side (name of the producer, location and year).

Alexander

Sergio Natali · 11-30-2013, 05:17 AM

For comparison I'll send a photo of an original Swiss one dated 1916

Ben M. · 11-30-2013, 08:31 PM

http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?s...05&lotNo=32250

BU proof stampings look very light on the left side. might be a redo.
pin thru toggle knob looks blued. might be a redo.
the 173,xx is the old way of indicating the barrel is in 7.65 caliber.
since the gun is a civilian gun and not military, the holster in the photo may be one for a civilian buyer. military holsters have swiss proof markings, under the closing flap.

Geo99 · 12-02-2013, 01:59 AM

So that's what he second number is on the barrel. It really fooled me because it is 5 digits like the SN and it is above the SN (all military Lugers I have seen have the bore dimension under the SN).

It might be a redo, but -
The toggle retaining pin does not look blued to me. Don't you think that could be dirt or rust in the groove? Do you think someone would file the pin down and not scrape the blue out of the cracks?

And there are halos on the numbers under the barrel. Doesn't that show it is original?

It says there are no markings on the holster, so I assume it is commercial or a repro - the holster looks new so it could be a repro.

Stucki · 12-02-2013, 12:45 PM

I never heared from Swiss repro holsters. I think it's a civilian one, probably from a producer who also made holsters for the Swiss Army. Some of these holsters do not have any markings. By the awy: a civilian holster would be correct for this pistol.

Alexander

Dwight Gruber · 12-02-2013, 08:08 PM

The one good thing about "that auction site" is that they provide big enough pictures to make good determinations about their pistols. For instance, if you know how to see you can tell that the really interesting bargain commercial Lugers are long-ago refinish jobs--very nice ones--and will probably bring what they are worth.

Be very cautions about the Weimar navy Ostsee gun.

--Dwight

cirelaw · 12-02-2013, 09:52 PM

Was the reason the Swiss lugers are in such beautiful condition because they were never used in conflict?? ~~Eric

Geo99 · 12-02-2013, 11:10 PM

Stucki - thanks for the clarification on the holster.

Dwight - So are you saying this one is a long ago refinish? And do you like it?

Dwight Gruber · 12-02-2013, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geo99

Dwight - So are you saying this one is a long ago refinish? And do you like it?

Yes. And kinda, but I am not in the market for a refinished Luger.

--Dwight

ithacaartist · 12-03-2013, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Was the reason the Swiss lugers are in such beautiful condition because they were never used in conflict?? ~~Eric

Eric, that's probably a contributing factor. No trenches in Switzerland that I've ever heard about... Also, the Swiss did lots of maintenance on their military/police guns, when needed. (Retirees--pistols, not people-- were stamped with a "P" before being sold commercially?)

Sergio Natali · 12-03-2013, 10:54 AM

The capital "P" stands for privatized i.e. transferred to private ownership, often occurred that the first owner was the soldier that just had it during his military service; when followed by a figure as for example "P46" it means that the gun was privatized in 1946.

Lugerdoc · 12-03-2013, 12:21 PM

Cirelaw, Both the Swiss and the Dutch has regular factory refinishing programs. I a luger came back to the arsenal for repairs, it was normally refinished to :"as new". Tom

cirelaw · 12-03-2013, 12:37 PM

Tom Tks for your post.. My name is Eric, which is 'eric+ law' backwards, Too late to change!

Geo99 · 12-04-2013, 11:11 PM

Lugerdoc -

Were the Commercial Lugers regularly refinished as well?
In other words, could this gun have been professionally arsenal refinished, in your opinion?

Dwight Gruber · 12-05-2013, 07:08 AM

Apoligies for stealing Tom's question--Commercial Lugers are dealt with as any given owner might like. "...professionally arsenal refinished..." is a rather meaningless term here. Anyone who would do the work for hire would be a "professional," regardless of their knowledge or skill level. "Arsenal refinish" is a too-broad term under any circumstances, and has no relevence to a civilian firearm.

Refinished is just refinished.

--Dwight

Geo99 · 12-08-2013, 09:45 PM

Thanks for the help with this. I was concerned about it being just an ordinary old refinish so I bid low ($1100) to get a nice shooter but did not win this at Heritage auction yesterday.

Sold for $1438 with fees. I figure the whole rig was worth about $2000 as refinished - does that sound about right?

Thanks,
- Geo

11-29-2013, 03:06 PM	#1
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	1906 DWM Swiss Commercial - need opinions Hello friends, I am looking at a 1906 DWM Swiss Commercial SN 48877, BUG proofed on barrel, BU proofed on left side, short frame, 7.65, unmarked wood mag, with what appears to be all original finish. I believe the SN falls in the correct 35000-55000 range for this scarce pistol (only about 1000 were made)? I am thinking of trying to buy this. I know about WWI guns, but not so much about 1900-1906 models, so I need some expert opinion on some areas of concern. Basically I need to know if it looks all original (I know you can't always tell from pics, but I think it is). 1. The barrel has a second SN stamp (173xx) - what is this? I have seen this on some other 1906 Swiss - was it done when they put the BUG proofs on it? 2. I did not think a commercial gun should have barrel SN halos - am I wrong? The pistol SN on the barrel has halos (the other number does too, but if that was part of the BUG proof, then it makes sense that it would have halo). 3. The safety area that is ground white looks fat and short to me. Most of the other ones I've seen are a little narrower and extend up past the dimple in the frame. But it is rusted/tarnished in that area so it appears old. 4. Grip safety looks very clean with almost no wear, but the bore is very good too. 5. The holster is definitely not original, but what is it? Late 1920s commercial? Thanks, - Geo Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

11-30-2013, 05:17 AM	#4
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	For comparison I'll send a photo of an original Swiss one dated 1916 Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-02-2013, 01:59 AM	#6
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	So that's what he second number is on the barrel. It really fooled me because it is 5 digits like the SN and it is above the SN (all military Lugers I have seen have the bore dimension under the SN). It might be a redo, but - The toggle retaining pin does not look blued to me. Don't you think that could be dirt or rust in the groove? Do you think someone would file the pin down and not scrape the blue out of the cracks? And there are halos on the numbers under the barrel. Doesn't that show it is original? It says there are no markings on the holster, so I assume it is commercial or a repro - the holster looks new so it could be a repro. __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

12-02-2013, 12:45 PM	#7
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 83 Thanks: 1 Thanked 129 Times in 33 Posts	I never heared from Swiss repro holsters. I think it's a civilian one, probably from a producer who also made holsters for the Swiss Army. Some of these holsters do not have any markings. By the awy: a civilian holster would be correct for this pistol. Alexander Last edited by Stucki; 12-02-2013 at 04:42 PM.

12-02-2013, 11:10 PM	#10
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	Stucki - thanks for the clarification on the holster. Dwight - So are you saying this one is a long ago refinish? And do you like it? __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

11-29-2013, 05:23 PM	#2
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	wow that thing is mint for over 100 years old. thats like 99.7% condition. I dont know jack about lugers but that doesnt look like a weimar period holster.

11-30-2013, 03:29 AM	#3
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 83 Thanks: 1 Thanked 129 Times in 33 Posts	thats a typical Swiss Army holster for Models 1900 and 1900/06. It should have a stamp on the back side (name of the producer, location and year). Alexander

11-30-2013, 08:31 PM	#5
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?s...05&lotNo=32250 BU proof stampings look very light on the left side. might be a redo. pin thru toggle knob looks blued. might be a redo. the 173,xx is the old way of indicating the barrel is in 7.65 caliber. since the gun is a civilian gun and not military, the holster in the photo may be one for a civilian buyer. military holsters have swiss proof markings, under the closing flap.

12-02-2013, 08:08 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	The one good thing about "that auction site" is that they provide big enough pictures to make good determinations about their pistols. For instance, if you know how to see you can tell that the really interesting bargain commercial Lugers are long-ago refinish jobs--very nice ones--and will probably bring what they are worth. Be very cautions about the Weimar navy Ostsee gun. --Dwight

12-02-2013, 09:52 PM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Was the reason the Swiss lugers are in such beautiful condition because they were never used in conflict?? ~~Eric

12-03-2013, 10:54 AM	#13
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	The capital "P" stands for privatized i.e. transferred to private ownership, often occurred that the first owner was the soldier that just had it during his military service; when followed by a figure as for example "P46" it means that the gun was privatized in 1946. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-03-2013, 12:21 PM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Cirelaw, Both the Swiss and the Dutch has regular factory refinishing programs. I a luger came back to the arsenal for repairs, it was normally refinished to :"as new". Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-03-2013, 12:37 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Tom Tks for your post.. My name is Eric, which is 'eric+ law' backwards, Too late to change!

12-04-2013, 11:11 PM	#16
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	Lugerdoc - Were the Commercial Lugers regularly refinished as well? In other words, could this gun have been professionally arsenal refinished, in your opinion? __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

12-05-2013, 07:08 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Apoligies for stealing Tom's question--Commercial Lugers are dealt with as any given owner might like. "...professionally arsenal refinished..." is a rather meaningless term here. Anyone who would do the work for hire would be a "professional," regardless of their knowledge or skill level. "Arsenal refinish" is a too-broad term under any circumstances, and has no relevence to a civilian firearm. Refinished is just refinished. --Dwight

12-08-2013, 09:45 PM	#18
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	Thanks for the help with this. I was concerned about it being just an ordinary old refinish so I bid low ($1100) to get a nice shooter but did not win this at Heritage auction yesterday. Sold for $1438 with fees. I figure the whole rig was worth about $2000 as refinished - does that sound about right? Thanks, - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers