East German proof?

jeffs · 07-13-2009, 09:14 PM

Dear Experts

Would a barrel with a Crown/U (and no other marks or serial number on the barrel) be consistent with an East German and/or VOPO rework? I have observed Crown/N before, but not this(?)

Thanks,
Jeff

Vlim · 07-14-2009, 05:52 AM

Jeff,

Yes, that is possible. The crown/N was the standard nitro proof for new barrels, the crown/U was more of a quality check on existing parts.

jeffs · 07-14-2009, 07:18 AM

Thanks!

Jeff

sheepherder · 07-14-2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Jeff,

Yes, that is possible. The crown/N was the standard nitro proof for new barrels, the crown/U was more of a quality check on existing parts.

Vlim -

Both/three of my C96 Mauser "Broomhandle" barrels have the crown/U on the chamber...How does that relate to your "quality check on existing parts" theory???

(Might even be two crowns over a U)

Vlim · 07-14-2009, 08:55 AM

Hi,

Simple: The interpretation of laws by different proof houses in different areas.

The Suhl proof house was responsible for the Suhl area where the VEB Ernst ThÃ¤lmann was located, so the DDR proofed pistols conform to the rules as interpreted by the Suhl proof house.

The Mauser C96 (and others) were subjected to proofing at the proofhouse in Oberndorf (later Ulm) and the crown/crown U was used as a test firing proof (the equivalent of the Suhl crown/N). Why the guys in the south used a different approach is unknown to me. It is clear, however, that the pre- and postwar Suhl proof house followed the German proof laws by the letter.

The official definition for the crown/U is that it is an inspection or 'Untersuchungs' marking. This marking was to be used for inspecting firearms that were presented for a voluntary inspection. These voluntary inspections were usually done after serious repairs or in other cases where there was a reason for retesting.

Hence: The crown/U on a pistol proofed in the Suhl area (also at its subsidiaries in Berlin, Frankfurt am Oder, Spandau and Erfurt before the war) has a different meaning than the crown/crown U found on pistols proofed in the Wurttemberg region (Ulm, Oberndorf am Neckar).

sheepherder · 07-14-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Hi,

Simple: The interpretation of laws by different proof houses in different areas.

Hence: The crown/U on a pistol proofed in the Suhl area (also at its subsidiaries in Berlin, Frankfurt am Oder, Spandau and Erfurt before the war) has a different meaning than the crown/crown U found on pistols proofed in the Wurttemberg region (Ulm, Oberndorf am Neckar).

So each German "state" had it's own proofing? How about a Mauser made Luger in Oberndorf; could/would it have two proofs, crown/U and crown/crown/U???

IIRC, the crown/M is a Navy proof??? Who would have made/proofed that???

(BTW: Email/PM to you)

Vlim · 07-14-2009, 11:22 AM

Hi,

Yes, it all got confusing when the guys in WÃ¼rttemberg decided not to follow the proof laws to the letter (who knows why?).

The Crown/N, Crown/U, Crown/B and Crown/Crown U are all 'commercial proofs'. Intended for pistols that went to the commercial (non-military) market.

The military had their own proofing regulations and staff. The crown/M is a navy proof and proofing would have been done at the factory under supervision of a navy representative.

07-13-2009, 09:14 PM	#1
jeffs User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	East German proof? Dear Experts Would a barrel with a Crown/U (and no other marks or serial number on the barrel) be consistent with an East German and/or VOPO rework? I have observed Crown/N before, but not this(?) Thanks, Jeff

07-14-2009, 05:52 AM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Jeff, Yes, that is possible. The crown/N was the standard nitro proof for new barrels, the crown/U was more of a quality check on existing parts.

07-14-2009, 07:18 AM	#3
jeffs User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks! Jeff

07-14-2009, 08:55 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, Simple: The interpretation of laws by different proof houses in different areas. The Suhl proof house was responsible for the Suhl area where the VEB Ernst ThÃ¤lmann was located, so the DDR proofed pistols conform to the rules as interpreted by the Suhl proof house. The Mauser C96 (and others) were subjected to proofing at the proofhouse in Oberndorf (later Ulm) and the crown/crown U was used as a test firing proof (the equivalent of the Suhl crown/N). Why the guys in the south used a different approach is unknown to me. It is clear, however, that the pre- and postwar Suhl proof house followed the German proof laws by the letter. The official definition for the crown/U is that it is an inspection or 'Untersuchungs' marking. This marking was to be used for inspecting firearms that were presented for a voluntary inspection. These voluntary inspections were usually done after serious repairs or in other cases where there was a reason for retesting. Hence: The crown/U on a pistol proofed in the Suhl area (also at its subsidiaries in Berlin, Frankfurt am Oder, Spandau and Erfurt before the war) has a different meaning than the crown/crown U found on pistols proofed in the Wurttemberg region (Ulm, Oberndorf am Neckar).

07-14-2009, 11:22 AM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, Yes, it all got confusing when the guys in WÃ¼rttemberg decided not to follow the proof laws to the letter (who knows why?). The Crown/N, Crown/U, Crown/B and Crown/Crown U are all 'commercial proofs'. Intended for pistols that went to the commercial (non-military) market. The military had their own proofing regulations and staff. The crown/M is a navy proof and proofing would have been done at the factory under supervision of a navy representative.