Fair price for unknown DWM?

Fairfield Bob · 08-24-2012, 02:35 PM

Hello--
I viewed a DWM P08 listed for sale by a private party and don't know anything about the model. I have a Black Widow.
The DWM is undated. It carries a 5 digit SN, 67xxx present under the barrel and I think on the trigger lock plate. Quick look appeared as if all numbers matched(last two). Gun is unblued or very weakly so. Wooden grips intact. It has a grip safety mechanism, broad, that pops out when activated but returns very lazy when inactivated. The only markings noted are Crown over upright N. Reportedly it was an enlisted man GI bringback and is in a hard-shell brown holster, 1941 date. Per the seller, he was offered 2K at a gunshow and turned it down on advice of bystanders. Question--what's the age of the piece and is there a reasonable fair-value to be assigned?
I advised him to check out some sites to learn more about it himself. I'd make an offer based on better knowledge all around.
Thanks--FF Bob

Edward Tinker · 08-24-2012, 02:41 PM

Very conflicting info here Bob, as a 5 digit wouldn't have a grip safety

if you can see the last two on many parts, then it is a military or police, not a commercial, possible, in fact the police obtained commercial guns, however, not grip safety's....

pictures would make it better

2k was most likely, more than fair, problem is, most gun show types think every luger is worth $2,000-$3000 and they all aren't...

John Sabato · 08-24-2012, 02:49 PM

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

From your description, I THINK can tell you that the gun is commercial and not military in origin... IF the serial numbers are somewhat hidden and not out in the open like a military gun... but that doesn't preclude the possibility of it coming here as a GI Bring-back. $2K sounds quite a bit high, even with a 1941 holster... (which IS appropriate for your byf Luger!)

Lacking photographs, can you tell us if it had a stock-lug at the back of the grip like your other Luger? or is back of the the grip frame smooth?

... Based on the lack of finish that you described, I would say that the price is widely ballparked in the $750-$1100 range... WITH the holster.

The grip safety would likely work better once the gun is properly cleaned and lubricated.

Get us good close-up and focused photographs and we will do a much better job of evaluation.

It is most likely post WW1 and from DWM production in the 1920's, but I will let others confirm that.

Fairfield Bob · 08-24-2012, 03:10 PM

Thank you both, Ed and John, for the reply. I know the offer price boosted expectations which isn't surprising. I'm out of town for a bit and planned on checking back with him on my return. Pics at this point would be awkward. My initial reaction was under $1500 for both but with no real interest in the holster. I don't think he'd just sell the pistol. The best I can recall was the grip was smooth. Clips were aftermarket cheapies. I omitted that it was a short barrel, likely 4-4 1/2". From what you say, would a blued finish be expected during this vintage of production?
FF Bob

Edward Tinker · 08-24-2012, 04:16 PM

ALL vintages of production

find out caliber, etc

it could be a dutch or Portuguese or german or who knows (variations, all made in germany)

Neil Young · 08-24-2012, 04:44 PM

Ed:
He said it was marked with a C/N. So, it could be an early commercial with a 5-digit serial number and a grip safety, could it not?

Edward Tinker · 08-24-2012, 06:33 PM

Neil, absolutely, but I have seen bottoms and tops that don't match, so until he can look closer, it could be several models

Fairfield Bob · 08-24-2012, 06:34 PM

It is 9mm-he ran a few rounds through it a range few years back. Interesting on the blue.
FF Bob

George Anderson · 08-24-2012, 08:32 PM

Sounds like a 1906 9mm commercial, a relatively scarce gun. Is it "GERMANY" marked anywhere?

Ron Wood · 08-24-2012, 08:40 PM

George,
That was my first thought too, but it is kind of a high serial number for a 1906. I alao thought it might be an even more rare 1913 Commercial but the serial number is a bit too low. Also the "crown over an upright N" is puzzling, the vertical Crown/N is a 1920 proof. Need to see photos.

Fairfield Bob · 08-25-2012, 12:20 AM

Thanks to all on the replies. I didn't see "Germany" or any other similar reference. Pics would have to wait depending on if he still has the piece in a week or so. Could be an expensive set of photos. Using the term "scarce" would do what to the value? If $1100 is a bottom, how high are we talking in your judgement for a poor finish pistol with no original clips? Re. photos, what is critical to make the ID? I've not had much experience in taking or sending these things.
Later, FF Bob

mrerick · 08-25-2012, 09:47 AM

Bob, there are so many variables here that you should consider we really can't help you evaluate it without more detail. Each of the responders is speculating what it might be based upon what you've described. The problem is that we can't know what it actually is, and that the collector value could vary a huge amount based upon details that establish rarity, condition, matching status etc...

Based upon the description I'd offer a "shooter" price until proved otherwise.

Marc

ithacaartist · 08-25-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Based upon the description I'd offer a "shooter" price until proved otherwise.

Marc

I think this is good practice, when buying. The main rule of thumb is "Buy the gun, not the story." Then, "Condition, condition, condition..." Start with these two hurdles to winnow most of the chaff. Now is where all the fun begins, sorting through, comparing correct markings and configurations to yours, to flesh out what is the fullest possible picture of your gun. There are, indeed, some mighty experts--and I speak of true expertise here, a product of years of experience and study--on this forum. It is not unusual for a collector to specialize in particular Lugers of whatever variation. So, no one knows everything; and this is where the forums come in handy: Submitting the clearest, highest resolution, most comprehensive series of pics possible gives all the forum members a chance to check out what you have. It is usually the case that eventually we can nail it down reasonably tight. (Did I use enough qualifiers, here? There are, of course, no guarantees.) Anyway, the thing that gives the the most power to this collective body of knowledge is the comprehensiveness and quality of your pics.

glock30 · 08-25-2012, 02:45 PM

Are you including a letter as a digit? I had a 5 digit 13,000 range commercial with a grip safety that was a .30 Luger, I have a picture of it. I don't see why it would not have a grip safety? But who knows.

Neil Young · 08-25-2012, 02:56 PM

Four digits and a letter does not constitute a 5-digit serial number (ie. 67202).

Neil

glock30 · 08-25-2012, 03:24 PM

This was my 1900 Commercial, it had a grip safety, 5 numbers, NO letters of course, it has been years since I had this gun, but this is it pictured with the exact same Mauser I just got back after 23 years, 10.2098. And Mr. Young, I realize that, i was asking the gentlemen for maybe he did not know? Being that people think a 5 serial number cannot have a grip safety, mine was 13,000+ and did. Thanks you Neil for actually saying it like that, i did not want to sound so stern, if perhaps he was making that mistake. By the way, this 1900 was all matching, but the breechblock had a different number? ANd it looked really good and exact, did people in the States fix them and maybe have provided this part?

Fairfield Bob · 08-25-2012, 10:09 PM

Hello again--to address the most recent comments, there is no letter associated with the 5 digit S/N. I will pursue a comprehensive set of pics with the seller's permission in the effort to satisfy the nuances in evolving a best-fit ID. The unquestioned expertise of the board deserves no less. Thanks to all for sharing your views on the subject.
FF Bob

08-24-2012, 02:35 PM	#1
Fairfield Bob User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Cumberland Co., TN Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fair price for unknown DWM? Hello-- I viewed a DWM P08 listed for sale by a private party and don't know anything about the model. I have a Black Widow. The DWM is undated. It carries a 5 digit SN, 67xxx present under the barrel and I think on the trigger lock plate. Quick look appeared as if all numbers matched(last two). Gun is unblued or very weakly so. Wooden grips intact. It has a grip safety mechanism, broad, that pops out when activated but returns very lazy when inactivated. The only markings noted are Crown over upright N. Reportedly it was an enlisted man GI bringback and is in a hard-shell brown holster, 1941 date. Per the seller, he was offered 2K at a gunshow and turned it down on advice of bystanders. Question--what's the age of the piece and is there a reasonable fair-value to be assigned? I advised him to check out some sites to learn more about it himself. I'd make an offer based on better knowledge all around. Thanks--FF Bob

08-24-2012, 02:41 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Very conflicting info here Bob, as a 5 digit wouldn't have a grip safety if you can see the last two on many parts, then it is a military or police, not a commercial, possible, in fact the police obtained commercial guns, however, not grip safety's.... pictures would make it better 2k was most likely, more than fair, problem is, most gun show types think every luger is worth $2,000-$3000 and they all aren't... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-24-2012, 02:49 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum. From your description, I THINK can tell you that the gun is commercial and not military in origin... IF the serial numbers are somewhat hidden and not out in the open like a military gun... but that doesn't preclude the possibility of it coming here as a GI Bring-back. $2K sounds quite a bit high, even with a 1941 holster... (which IS appropriate for your byf Luger!) Lacking photographs, can you tell us if it had a stock-lug at the back of the grip like your other Luger? or is back of the the grip frame smooth? ... Based on the lack of finish that you described, I would say that the price is widely ballparked in the $750-$1100 range... WITH the holster. The grip safety would likely work better once the gun is properly cleaned and lubricated. Get us good close-up and focused photographs and we will do a much better job of evaluation. It is most likely post WW1 and from DWM production in the 1920's, but I will let others confirm that. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-24-2012, 04:16 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	ALL vintages of production find out caliber, etc it could be a dutch or Portuguese or german or who knows (variations, all made in germany) __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-24-2012, 04:44 PM	#6
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 540 Thanks: 546 Thanked 438 Times in 165 Posts	Ed: He said it was marked with a C/N. So, it could be an early commercial with a 5-digit serial number and a grip safety, could it not? __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

08-24-2012, 03:10 PM	#4
Fairfield Bob User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Cumberland Co., TN Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you both, Ed and John, for the reply. I know the offer price boosted expectations which isn't surprising. I'm out of town for a bit and planned on checking back with him on my return. Pics at this point would be awkward. My initial reaction was under $1500 for both but with no real interest in the holster. I don't think he'd just sell the pistol. The best I can recall was the grip was smooth. Clips were aftermarket cheapies. I omitted that it was a short barrel, likely 4-4 1/2". From what you say, would a blued finish be expected during this vintage of production? FF Bob

08-24-2012, 06:33 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Neil, absolutely, but I have seen bottoms and tops that don't match, so until he can look closer, it could be several models

08-24-2012, 06:34 PM	#8
Fairfield Bob User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Cumberland Co., TN Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is 9mm-he ran a few rounds through it a range few years back. Interesting on the blue. FF Bob

08-24-2012, 08:32 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Sounds like a 1906 9mm commercial, a relatively scarce gun. Is it "GERMANY" marked anywhere?

08-24-2012, 08:40 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	George, That was my first thought too, but it is kind of a high serial number for a 1906. I alao thought it might be an even more rare 1913 Commercial but the serial number is a bit too low. Also the "crown over an upright N" is puzzling, the vertical Crown/N is a 1920 proof. Need to see photos. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-25-2012, 12:20 AM	#11
Fairfield Bob User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Cumberland Co., TN Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all on the replies. I didn't see "Germany" or any other similar reference. Pics would have to wait depending on if he still has the piece in a week or so. Could be an expensive set of photos. Using the term "scarce" would do what to the value? If $1100 is a bottom, how high are we talking in your judgement for a poor finish pistol with no original clips? Re. photos, what is critical to make the ID? I've not had much experience in taking or sending these things. Later, FF Bob

08-25-2012, 09:47 AM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Bob, there are so many variables here that you should consider we really can't help you evaluate it without more detail. Each of the responders is speculating what it might be based upon what you've described. The problem is that we can't know what it actually is, and that the collector value could vary a huge amount based upon details that establish rarity, condition, matching status etc... Based upon the description I'd offer a "shooter" price until proved otherwise. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-25-2012, 02:45 PM	#14
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Are you including a letter as a digit? I had a 5 digit 13,000 range commercial with a grip safety that was a .30 Luger, I have a picture of it. I don't see why it would not have a grip safety? But who knows.

08-25-2012, 02:56 PM	#15
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 540 Thanks: 546 Thanked 438 Times in 165 Posts	Four digits and a letter does not constitute a 5-digit serial number (ie. 67202). Neil __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

08-25-2012, 03:24 PM	#16
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	This was my 1900 Commercial, it had a grip safety, 5 numbers, NO letters of course, it has been years since I had this gun, but this is it pictured with the exact same Mauser I just got back after 23 years, 10.2098. And Mr. Young, I realize that, i was asking the gentlemen for maybe he did not know? Being that people think a 5 serial number cannot have a grip safety, mine was 13,000+ and did. Thanks you Neil for actually saying it like that, i did not want to sound so stern, if perhaps he was making that mistake. By the way, this 1900 was all matching, but the breechblock had a different number? ANd it looked really good and exact, did people in the States fix them and maybe have provided this part? Attached Thumbnails

08-25-2012, 10:09 PM	#17
Fairfield Bob User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Cumberland Co., TN Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello again--to address the most recent comments, there is no letter associated with the 5 digit S/N. I will pursue a comprehensive set of pics with the seller's permission in the effort to satisfy the nuances in evolving a best-fit ID. The unquestioned expertise of the board deserves no less. Thanks to all for sharing your views on the subject. FF Bob