Stange Artillery Luger

Dwight Gruber · 01-29-2005, 08:04 PM

Was shown an Artillery Luger at the Portland gun show today with very odd characteristics.

To all appearances it was a completely normal 1918 LP-08 in the c serial number range. Not mint, but in pretty good shape, average wear, no pitting, holdopen no match. So far so good.

On closer inspection, this Luger got out of the factory with no proofs of any kind. There are no inspectors' stamps on the right receiver, no power proofs on the receiver or the breechblock or the barrel.

Has anyone seen the like, any thoughts?

--Dwight

mauro · 01-30-2005, 06:27 AM

Dwight,
Very interesting discover.
Recently I have spoken with a friend of mine that found a similar LP08 w/ only a subset of proof marks.
Personally I have a hypothesis about this kind of LP08.
You know that during WWI, Germany was used to sell guns to alliesÃ¢?? armies mainly Finnish and Turkish one. Normally these guns were extracted by the military stocks so they have all proof marks. Due to the reduction of military stocks in the last year of WWI, it can happen that several guns were shipped to these countries w/o German test proofs, to speed up the activity.

For example, if you look at my web site, you can read the history of Johan Benjamin Jauhiainen, Finnish Army Officer with his Prize LP08 (I am very proud to have the complete set of photos of this officer w/ his LP08). This officer bought a LP08 and use this pistol during WWI and also afterward. Jauhiainen, with other 100 men, came back to Finland in December 1917 w/ his LP08 and other two huge gun cargo. Most of them were ordered for training Home Guards around Finland.
On February/May 1918 they took a part to FinlandÃ¢??s struggle for independence on the WhiteÃ¢??s side.

The Turkish army used as well the LP08. I have a Turkish LP08 holster in my collection.

To sum up, I think that several LP08 at the end of WWI as well as other guns were directly shipped to the alliesÃ¢?? armies without the complete set of proof marks to reduce time and related costs.

This is only my personal thought and it could be wrong.
Ciao
Mauro

Lugerdoc · 01-30-2005, 10:32 AM

Dwight, I doubt the contract pistol theory, with most other contracts being at least commerically proofed. Most likely an employees lunch box special or perhaps left over or armour's spare parts from WW1, assembled at a later date, at other than the factory. Th

Dwight Gruber · 01-30-2005, 10:59 AM

I've always had my doubts about the lunchbox-special scenario. According to the 1910 marking instructions, any receiver which has a chamber date will also have at least the first receiver inspector stamp. The second stamp is applied at the same stage as serial-numbering the parts. A lunchbox-special, therefore, would not have any serial numbers (unless the employee contrived to steal an entire whole gun after stamping but prior to final assembly for power-proofing).

From memory, I don't think that armorer's kit parts were serial-numbered. My recollection is also that receivers were not armorer parts.

Sorry about the negatives, its still too much of a puzzle.

--Dwight

mauro · 01-30-2005, 11:22 AM

Hello fellows,
Of course the easier and most probable hypothesis is to think that this is a puzzle.
But Mr. Kenyon describes some late LP08 models, maybe commercial, w/o marks (Luger at Random).
Assuming that some of these LP08 are not a puzzle my hypothesis could be not so far from the reality.
Of course this is only a speculation linked to my positive personality.

Ciao
Mauro

Vlim · 01-30-2005, 02:48 PM

Hi,

It is a documented fact that after 1917 the demand for P08's (and thus for the LP08 as well) dropped. After peak production runs the German army's arsenals were stockpiled with lugers and DWM cut down on their production.

Most probably they just sought other ways to sell left-over supplies during the late war years. Also, during the collapse of the german reich and the subsequent allied control during 1918-1920 a lot of things happened. Staff were discharged and only small 'skeleton crews' remained to watch over the company. A lot of material must also have been carried out by people who lost their jobs and decided not to leave empty handed.

Big Norm · 01-31-2005, 02:20 AM

I would agree with van Vlimmeren. I have a P-08 in 30 cal that has no serial number or markings on it. I only bought it because it had some nice fancy grips, a Russian extractor and an original, numbered, wood bottom mag. Somebody tried to dress it up by engraving some leaves on it and also put a hood over the front sight. But, again, no proof marks at all. All this is a bit much for an armorers put together.

01-29-2005, 08:04 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Stange Artillery Luger Was shown an Artillery Luger at the Portland gun show today with very odd characteristics. To all appearances it was a completely normal 1918 LP-08 in the c serial number range. Not mint, but in pretty good shape, average wear, no pitting, holdopen no match. So far so good. On closer inspection, this Luger got out of the factory with no proofs of any kind. There are no inspectors' stamps on the right receiver, no power proofs on the receiver or the breechblock or the barrel. Has anyone seen the like, any thoughts? --Dwight

01-30-2005, 06:27 AM	#2
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Dwight, Very interesting discover. Recently I have spoken with a friend of mine that found a similar LP08 w/ only a subset of proof marks. Personally I have a hypothesis about this kind of LP08. You know that during WWI, Germany was used to sell guns to alliesÃ¢?? armies mainly Finnish and Turkish one. Normally these guns were extracted by the military stocks so they have all proof marks. Due to the reduction of military stocks in the last year of WWI, it can happen that several guns were shipped to these countries w/o German test proofs, to speed up the activity. For example, if you look at my web site, you can read the history of Johan Benjamin Jauhiainen, Finnish Army Officer with his Prize LP08 (I am very proud to have the complete set of photos of this officer w/ his LP08). This officer bought a LP08 and use this pistol during WWI and also afterward. Jauhiainen, with other 100 men, came back to Finland in December 1917 w/ his LP08 and other two huge gun cargo. Most of them were ordered for training Home Guards around Finland. On February/May 1918 they took a part to FinlandÃ¢??s struggle for independence on the WhiteÃ¢??s side. The Turkish army used as well the LP08. I have a Turkish LP08 holster in my collection. To sum up, I think that several LP08 at the end of WWI as well as other guns were directly shipped to the alliesÃ¢?? armies without the complete set of proof marks to reduce time and related costs. This is only my personal thought and it could be wrong. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

01-30-2005, 10:32 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dwight, I doubt the contract pistol theory, with most other contracts being at least commerically proofed. Most likely an employees lunch box special or perhaps left over or armour's spare parts from WW1, assembled at a later date, at other than the factory. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-30-2005, 11:22 AM	#5
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello fellows, Of course the easier and most probable hypothesis is to think that this is a puzzle. But Mr. Kenyon describes some late LP08 models, maybe commercial, w/o marks (Luger at Random). Assuming that some of these LP08 are not a puzzle my hypothesis could be not so far from the reality. Of course this is only a speculation linked to my positive personality. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

01-30-2005, 10:59 AM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	I've always had my doubts about the lunchbox-special scenario. According to the 1910 marking instructions, any receiver which has a chamber date will also have at least the first receiver inspector stamp. The second stamp is applied at the same stage as serial-numbering the parts. A lunchbox-special, therefore, would not have any serial numbers (unless the employee contrived to steal an entire whole gun after stamping but prior to final assembly for power-proofing). From memory, I don't think that armorer's kit parts were serial-numbered. My recollection is also that receivers were not armorer parts. Sorry about the negatives, its still too much of a puzzle. --Dwight

01-30-2005, 02:48 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, It is a documented fact that after 1917 the demand for P08's (and thus for the LP08 as well) dropped. After peak production runs the German army's arsenals were stockpiled with lugers and DWM cut down on their production. Most probably they just sought other ways to sell left-over supplies during the late war years. Also, during the collapse of the german reich and the subsequent allied control during 1918-1920 a lot of things happened. Staff were discharged and only small 'skeleton crews' remained to watch over the company. A lot of material must also have been carried out by people who lost their jobs and decided not to leave empty handed.

01-31-2005, 02:20 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I would agree with van Vlimmeren. I have a P-08 in 30 cal that has no serial number or markings on it. I only bought it because it had some nice fancy grips, a Russian extractor and an original, numbered, wood bottom mag. Somebody tried to dress it up by engraving some leaves on it and also put a hood over the front sight. But, again, no proof marks at all. All this is a bit much for an armorers put together.