Naval arms I.D.

hayhugh · 03-10-2016, 10:45 AM

Maybe among the naval enthusiasts on here some one can help me identify which outfit used this cutlass?

lugerholsterrepair · 03-10-2016, 05:45 PM

It's not Navy that I can see? Perhaps an Army short sword?

m1903a3 · 03-10-2016, 11:42 PM

The KM is the property mark of the Prussian/German Navy in the second half of the 19th century. KM = Königliche Marine (Royal Navy) while the 796 is the weapon number of this particular Entermesser (cutlass).

The first repeating pistols used by the Prussian (later Imperial) Navy were Colt 1851 Navies that Colt tried to smuggle to Russia in bales of hay shipped by rail. They were discovered and confiscated in Prussia, who later issued 1,000 of them to the Navy. The pistols and accessories were marked numbered like this cutlass.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/55/lid/1111

hayhugh · 03-11-2016, 06:50 AM

Thank you very much Mike. I seem to remember seeing a photo on the forum with sailors holding both Lugers and these cutlass's. Hugh

m1903a3 · 03-12-2016, 12:55 AM

I don't recall seeing photos of a group armed with both Lugers and this model cutlass. This is a
Model 1861 Entermesser, which was obsolete by the time the Lugers entered regular service with the German Navy in Spring 1906. The most common of those "class" pictures are of the first or second Torpedo Division training classes. The earliest ones with Lugers still have the Hirschfanger 71 or the Marine Seitengewehr 98 a.A., while ones after early 1911 have the M1911 Seitengewehr.

Most of the other class photos of the training groups have rifles and bayonets, without the Lugers.

hayhugh · 03-12-2016, 10:41 AM

Mike the photo I was referring to showed a bunch of rather dirty sailors. Two in front were pointing lugers at one another as if getting ready to fire and in the background were other sailors a couple with cutlass's

m1903a3 · 03-13-2016, 12:03 AM

Ah. Could you please post a copy? I'd be very interested to see one with P.04s and the old M1861 cutlasses.

hayhugh · 03-28-2016, 04:26 PM

Mike I finally ran the photo down - it was on another forum__ http://luger.gunboards.com/attachmen...2&d=1449530642

m1903a3 · 03-28-2016, 04:41 PM

I've seen that one before. They must be stokers - or coal miners!

In any event, they are not holding cutlasses like your EM1861. They are holding Seitengewehr 1911s. Look closely at the hilts.

sheepherder · 03-28-2016, 10:44 PM

Happened to see these two pics, sailors with cutlasses...Torpedo Division and Great War VBSS detail...

(Pics from S&G/TBLAP)

hayhugh · 03-29-2016, 08:46 AM

Great Photos Richard!

m1903a3 · 03-29-2016, 05:52 PM

Excellent pictures. The I.T.D. and II.T.D. (1st & 2nd Torpedo Divisions) were among the major users of the SG1911s shown in the photos, and their "class photos" are by far the most commonly encounter ones with matrosen holding P.04s. The 1st looks to be the II.T.D. in Wilhelmshaven
The second photo appears to be the Minen Abteilung, which was in Cuxhaven. Although they were also issued the SG1911s, their photos are not often seen.
I have a number of T.D. photos, but have none of the M.A. One of the Navy collectors on the two Luger forums scored an M.A. marked SG1911 at SoS in Louisville a couple of years ago. A very nice find.

03-10-2016, 10:45 AM	#1
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 882 Thanks: 848 Thanked 507 Times in 270 Posts	Naval arms I.D. Maybe among the naval enthusiasts on here some one can help me identify which outfit used this cutlass? Attached Thumbnails

03-10-2016, 05:45 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	It's not Navy that I can see? Perhaps an Army short sword? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-10-2016, 11:42 PM	#3
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	The KM is the property mark of the Prussian/German Navy in the second half of the 19th century. KM = Königliche Marine (Royal Navy) while the 796 is the weapon number of this particular Entermesser (cutlass). The first repeating pistols used by the Prussian (later Imperial) Navy were Colt 1851 Navies that Colt tried to smuggle to Russia in bales of hay shipped by rail. They were discovered and confiscated in Prussia, who later issued 1,000 of them to the Navy. The pistols and accessories were marked numbered like this cutlass. http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/55/lid/1111 __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-12-2016, 12:55 AM	#5
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	I don't recall seeing photos of a group armed with both Lugers and this model cutlass. This is a Model 1861 Entermesser, which was obsolete by the time the Lugers entered regular service with the German Navy in Spring 1906. The most common of those "class" pictures are of the first or second Torpedo Division training classes. The earliest ones with Lugers still have the Hirschfanger 71 or the Marine Seitengewehr 98 a.A., while ones after early 1911 have the M1911 Seitengewehr. Most of the other class photos of the training groups have rifles and bayonets, without the Lugers. __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-13-2016, 12:03 AM	#7
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	Ah. Could you please post a copy? I'd be very interested to see one with P.04s and the old M1861 cutlasses. __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-11-2016, 06:50 AM	#4
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 882 Thanks: 848 Thanked 507 Times in 270 Posts	Thank you very much Mike. I seem to remember seeing a photo on the forum with sailors holding both Lugers and these cutlass's. Hugh

03-12-2016, 10:41 AM	#6
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 882 Thanks: 848 Thanked 507 Times in 270 Posts	Mike the photo I was referring to showed a bunch of rather dirty sailors. Two in front were pointing lugers at one another as if getting ready to fire and in the background were other sailors a couple with cutlass's

03-28-2016, 04:26 PM	#8
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 882 Thanks: 848 Thanked 507 Times in 270 Posts	Mike I finally ran the photo down - it was on another forum__ http://luger.gunboards.com/attachmen...2&d=1449530642

03-28-2016, 04:41 PM	#9
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	I've seen that one before. They must be stokers - or coal miners! In any event, they are not holding cutlasses like your EM1861. They are holding Seitengewehr 1911s. Look closely at the hilts. __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-28-2016, 10:44 PM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Happened to see these two pics, sailors with cutlasses...Torpedo Division and Great War VBSS detail... (Pics from S&G/TBLAP) Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 03-29-2016 at 11:35 AM.

03-29-2016, 08:46 AM	#11
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 882 Thanks: 848 Thanked 507 Times in 270 Posts	Great Photos Richard!

03-29-2016, 05:52 PM	#12
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	Excellent pictures. The I.T.D. and II.T.D. (1st & 2nd Torpedo Divisions) were among the major users of the SG1911s shown in the photos, and their "class photos" are by far the most commonly encounter ones with matrosen holding P.04s. The 1st looks to be the II.T.D. in Wilhelmshaven The second photo appears to be the Minen Abteilung, which was in Cuxhaven. Although they were also issued the SG1911s, their photos are not often seen. I have a number of T.D. photos, but have none of the M.A. One of the Navy collectors on the two Luger forums scored an M.A. marked SG1911 at SoS in Louisville a couple of years ago. A very nice find. __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum