P.08 usage in WWII

[Feamane]

Hi all,

I've been lurking here for a while, but this is my first post.

I'd like to know if there are any good sources of information about P.08 use during WWII. Does "Third Reich Lugers" by Jan C. Still just cover
the details of P.08s manufactured in that time frame--or does it delve into the issue and use of any P.08s during the war--or both?

Is the book "The P08 Luger Pistol" by Guus De Vries & Bas Martens of any use in understanding P.08 use during WWII?

Some of the questions I would like to research are:

I understand that the P.08 was a substitute standard during WWII, how prevalent was its use?

Did only rear-echelon units use the P.08? SS units? Luftwaffe?

I read that the P.08 was made by Mauser until 1942 (or was it 1943?), were the new manufactured pistols issued to certain types of units or
just scattered about as required?

Were a lot of WWI era pistols reissued during WWII? If so, were they re-arsenaled at some point? Were the WWI pistols in good shape
refurbished while the ones in poor shape parted out? Or were the poor ones rebuilt as parts-guns and force-matched?

Were the stocks of P.08s used up by the end of the war and thus the development of the Volkspistole? Obviously it would be cheaper to make
Volkspistole than Lugers, but I would think it would be cheaper to issue refurbished P.08s than to develop and manufacture Volkspistole if there
were still stocks of P.08 pistols or parts still available.

Is there any info on how many P.08s were available in 1939?

Any pointers to books or other sources of information that might answer my questions would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
DJ

[The Wizard]

I would classify the P.08 as an ALTERNATE issue item post 1938. Remember the P.38 was not adopted until 1938. Pistols were issue on the bases of what the depot had on hand. If an infantry unit needed pistols and the depot had P.08's they issued P.08's to the infantry unit. Small arms procurement in the Third Riech was a mess. There was no "united" procurement plan. Think Krieghoff and the Luftwaffe and the SS had to make do at first with army hand-me-downs and captured weapons (FN High Powers).

[alanint]

Most Luger pistols that Germany was allowed to keep were reissued after WW1 with no modifications, although repairs were performed where necessary. The exception are Police Lugers, which had magazine and sear safeties added, along with renumbered magazines in many cases and renumbered parts.
The Volkspistole was meant as a last ditch armament for civilians, not the military, as pretty much all official pistol production was being consumed by Germany and its last allies.

[Michael Zeleny]

The Einsatzkommandos that murdered my mother's family in Uman on 16 September 1941 used submachine guns and Parabellum pistols.

[Vlim]

The basic problem of the Parabellum pistol was the production cost price. A P38 could be manufactured at about half the cost price of a P08, so it made sense from a wartime-economic view to give preference to the cheaper design. Since both used the same ammunition and had the same basic specifications, there was no need to recall P08 pistols and replace them with P38s.

[GerColctor]

Vilim

Not only was the P 38 less then half the cost of a P 08, the production process was much quicker, so more pistols could be made within the same time period. When you in total war you need as many guns as can be produced.

Lugers were hand fitted, (that is why the parts are numbered) whereas much of the P 38 has stamped material. If you compare the early 98k rifles to late models, you will see the transition over to stamped out parts. Also, P 38 were less prone to the effects of lack of maintainance in difficult enviorments.

Even though the Walter was accepted in 1938 to replace the Luger, it took years to set up production, so Mauser continued to produce the Luger until September 1942, when they able to shift over to the P 38. Kreighoff made their Luger model for the Luftwaffe and continued doing so until 1945.

Even though many of retuning German military at the end of WW I came home with Lugers and other weapons, the Nazis required that all of the personal "owned" guns be turned in, so many went into government storage. There was also a large quanity of Lugers that went from the military after 1918 into storage, as new Reichswehe was limited in size and didn't need all of them. The Weimar Government marked most of their issued Lugers "1920". As the "new" Herr expanded in the 1930s the WWI Lugers were reissued.

Between 1939 & 1941 Mauser produced over 390,000 Lugers. During this same period Walther produced 154,000 P 38 pistols. They needed Mauser to get into P 38 production to get the numbers up. Spreewerke also made P 38s, as the demand was so high.

Many of the GI "bring back" Lugers were made during the Imperial time and captured by the Americans during WW II, so a lot of those pistols were issued from storage to fill the demand.

[hgreer2]

The Luger is so recognizable that it is used in most WWll movies as the weapon of choice by the Germans.

Harry

[Feamane]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies and info. I gather then that there are no books or other references that delve into the issue/distribution of P.08 pistols during WWII? Does "Third Reich Lugers" by Jan C. Still just cover
the technical details of P.08s?

Based on the info some of you provided it sounds like the P.08 would have been quite prevalent in regular Heer units early in the war, but then was increasingly replaced by the P.38. Did the P.38s go to the upper tier units first like the Panzers and then trickled down from there? Trying to get a handle from a TO&E perspective.

Thanks,
DJ

[Georgesd]

This was a very interesting post. Learned a lot about the P08history.
Thanks.
George

[Edward Tinker]

Goertz covers the TO&E issue, and possibly a few others. You are asking info that is hard to trace down, although some of it is out there.

See the book reviews on the stickies here on the forums.

But going off of memory and since I am still unsure what you are looking for (my fault, brain fuzzy from travel)

Walter, has an encyclopedia version that is good for lots of facts, although not TO&E; his Luger Story is a good read on info and where it was used.

All of Jan Still's books are very good, but more scholarly than what I think you are looking for.

Several of the cheaper books you can find, do not have really good info, see reviews on several of them.

There was a post once on TO&E, most specifically about lugers being officers guns rather than issued to lots of NCO's etc, and I did some research at that time; a search should bring it up?

Ed

[alanint]

I can tell you from speaking to a number of German WW2 vets that it was considered prestigeous to retain as much of the old equipment as possible. The saltier the better, as this showed the mark of a longtime combat vet. An example are the jackboots. Many vets had theirs resoled privately rather than move to the low boot and gemashen, (gaiters), which singled you out as a nube. Another example are the bright, rather than the subdued rank tresses and tunic buttons. Only new guys got the subdued stuff, while true veterans still had the bright breast eagles, rank tress and pips, etc. The same is true of wearing an M1936 versus an M1940 tunic and I know this extended to carrying a Luger versus a P38.

[DavidJayUden]

We used the have a WW2 German vet in the area who described the P08 as an "officers' pistol". He said that the enlisted men preferred the P38 because "they worked".
dju

[Feamane]

Ah, more good info! I'll check into those books and try to sniff out the mentioned thread.

That sounds just like good soldier logic: everybody wants to look like they've been in the front lines forever--they just don't want to be in the front lines any more than necessary!

Interesting about the officers vs. NCOs, logic would say they would want a unit to have all one type or the other but as I've seen with many other things the reality was far different. But that does bring up the question about German officers having to buy their own pistols--I thought the P.08s were military issue not private purchase (at least the majority)? Maybe only higher level officers bought their own?

Regards,
DJ