1913 dwm

[DavidJayUden]

It's all starting to make sense now...
dju

[Leed709]

Top half and the frame same length. All parts have the Sn#356. Top half has Sn#356,side plate has Sn#56, Grips have Sn#56, Toggle link has Sn #356. No Sn# on barrel, but found small stamping that looks the swiss cross

[HerrKaiser]

Oh boy, potential Swiss marks on it just sent this one down another rabbit hole. Werent the DWM Swiss contract guns marked with a Swiss-cross sunburst over the chamber instead of a date though? Or was that just the WF Bern guns?

[Leed709]

Been searching web for cross marking on barrel. Found web site that has pic of same mark. the web site is, www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/proof-1.html The cross looks like num#5

[Leed709]

I been doing a lots of reading on the Luger pistol and I think I found out why this Luger is in 30 luger instead of 9mm. This luger was 9mm. After the treaty of 1917 the Germans were allowed only 8mm or below. So what they did was to rebarrel them to 30 luger to stay in the rules of the treaty. What I don't understand is the small cross on the left side of barrel.

[HerrKaiser]

Leed, the Swiss contract was for the Luger in its original .30 caliber setup (something that myself and several others think was a good move). The Swiss standard was .30 throughout its service life there even after they started their own production following WW1, though they could be rebarrelled to 9mm. If the Swiss marks on it are legit, that could also be the reason is was in .30 caliber instead.

[Ron Wood]

There are so many things unusual about this gun that we will never come close to identifying it without some photos. A gun dated 1913 and with a serial number of 356a would not have a grip safety unless it was converted, and that would require a different sear bar plus the safety marking (GESICHERT) would be in the wrong position. A 30 Luger barrel with a small cross is almost certainly a Swiss, but it would be threaded for a long frame/receiver and wouldn't work with a 1913 military short receiver without shortening the threads and rechambering. What is the length of the barrel? Just poke something thin enough to go down the barrel and measure the distance front of the breech block to the front of the barrel. Please provide some photos or just shoot me and put me out of my misery.

[Leed709]

Mr. Wood, Took some pic of Luger with my cell phone. I don't know how to post pic. If you would send me your email address. I will send you the pic. and you can post them in forum. Not the greatest pic., but I will try to take some better. My email address is Leed709@aim.com. I used a thin cleaning rod and measured the barrel length 47/8"

[4 Scale]

I offered to post photos and here they are.

[4 Scale]

A few more.

[4 Scale]

I attempted to enhance one photo. Leland texted me the photos, by return text I suggested he take them outside in indirect natural light. I also asked him if there were numbers on the barrel or barrel extension. Hard to say but the number on the left barrel extension may match the frame number.

[DonVoigt]

A couple things for sure, the 1913 DWM military receiver did not originate with that lower; and the lower has the wrong and likely too weak mainspring- the coils are too few and too far apart!

I'm going to "guess" that the "short" grip safety lower is from a DWM foreign contract.

[HerrKaiser]

Don, did the early Swiss contracts have the grip safety?

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

the lower has the wrong and likely too weak mainspring- the coils are too few and too far apart!

I don't know enough about Imperials to contribute much to this thread. But, doesn't the barrel look like .30 Luger? I counted the coils in my Portuguese 1906 pattern chambered in .30 Luger, and it has 15 coils on the mainspring which is about what I count here. The Portuguese shoots perfectly and looks fine on the tape test (mainspring is OK). So I'm thinking he's OK to shoot this if .30 Luger?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

Don, did the early Swiss contracts have the grip safety?

Yes, I believe all the "Swiss" lugers had grip safeties, but one of the Swiss experts will chime in.

[Ron Wood]

Yes, all Swiss have a grip safety.

Thanks so much for the photos. I am still at a bit of a loss to confidently identify it. But my best guess is that it is a Type III Commercial or Swiss Long Frame that has been faced back and re-numbered to match the short 1913 military receiver. The barrel appears to be Swiss that has been modified as I suggested, long threads shortened and rechambered. That is the only scenario that I can come up with and it appears to be well done...not a bubba modification.

[DonVoigt]

Ron,
why could it not be a short frame from a Brazilian contract?

Leed,
a good close up, in focus, of the area of the bottom of the well in the frame, where the take down lever passes through would help ID the frame.

One of the area shown below of a 1900 frame, not a Brazilian contract pistol; just to show the area to be photographed.

[Ron Wood]

Thanks Don, that is a possibility and also could be an M2 Portuguese. I kind of got hung up on picking out a frame that could be shaved to change the serial number but adding an "a" to a low serial number of either of those two contract pieces that coincidentally matched the receiver wouldn't require any metal work.
Ron

[cirelaw]

1906 Swiss Military to compare~ Swiss Luger Competition Award~

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

I don't know enough about Imperials to contribute much to this thread. But, doesn't the barrel look like .30 Luger? I counted the coils in my Portuguese 1906 pattern chambered in .30 Luger, and it has 15 coils on the mainspring which is about what I count here. The Portuguese shoots perfectly and looks fine on the tape test (mainspring is OK). So I'm thinking he's OK to shoot this if .30 Luger?

I don't think so, the coils seem awfully far apart to me; but I've been wrong before- .
Here is my Brazilian frame, with 15-16 coils, just looks closer than the picture above; but for a 7,65mm it is probably fine- after all the leaf spring of the 1900 had much less tension .

Here is the spring chart again, for those who have not seen it.

Leed can always mic the diameter of the wire if he wants to get into the "weeds" of springs.