"Not a real Walther"

Ron Smith · 12-31-2008, 07:16 PM

I thought some of you may get a chuckle out of this... I know I'm happy. I haven't been in a position to be spending money on guns lately, but couldn't walk away from this one.

Stopped at a "buy and sell" 2nd hand place with a friend yesterday. They had a few junk guns at premium prices. I looked in the pistol case, and down on the bottom shelf I saw this. It appears nearly unfired, probably a house gun. Original pebble grain vinyl box and all paper work in tact.

The price was $329.00. I asked why so cheap? The guy said,

"It's not a real Walther PPK. Just some kind of knock-off. We have an appraiser that told us that a real Walther should have an antler on it."

I've been looking for one at a decent price for a carry gun. Think I found it...

I'm also thinking of sending their appraiser a love letter.

Ron

wlyon · 12-31-2008, 08:51 PM

Ron
I like your junk sale!!!! I always think about these deals but never happens. Way to go!! Bill

Ron Smith · 12-31-2008, 09:03 PM

Hi Bill,

I almost told them that it was, a Walther. Then decided, who am I to argue with a certified gun appaiser, and kept my mouth shut.

I never go into these places, and almost waited in the rig while my friend went in. Glad that I decided to now.

Thanks...

Ron

Edward Tinker · 12-31-2008, 09:50 PM

Nice carry gun!

Good find Ron

Ed

Ron Wood · 12-31-2008, 10:07 PM

Sweet! I have a PPK/S that spends a bit of time in my hip pocket. Paid about the same for it. Would have preferred a PPK but glad to have the one I have. (Wanna swap?

)

Went Blakely · 01-01-2009, 01:15 AM

Hehe, what a great find, luck was on your side Ron

I'm with Bill however, i never find these type of sales

alvin · 01-01-2009, 06:28 AM

Wow.

Should give appraiser a big medal. It's a myth how they work, they must know detail of many types of guns and don't mix them up, that's hard.

jamese · 01-01-2009, 08:11 AM

Ron,
Nice buy!, did you see if he had any more of those "knock Offs" in the back room ?

Jim

Ron Smith · 01-01-2009, 09:16 AM

Ron,

I would need to think about it...no.

I've had two PPKS' in the past, but always wanted a PPK. When I ran across the rare one now and then, the dealer's always wanted a premium for them. There was one on GB a few months ago, but there again, the guy wanted way too much for it. The new S&W version isn't reliable from what I have heard. And has the long tang which defeats the compactness.

Alvin,

I have worked in , and hung around in gun shops long enough to know that most "experts" , ain't.

Went,

I have always dreamt about deals like this myself. This is a first.

Jim,

Most of the guns they had were cheap stuff that most of us wouldn't look at twice. When I first glanced at the "unWalther", I thought that it was an old Jennings or Raven until I saw the manual behind it.

Thanks guys...

Ron

alvin · 01-03-2009, 08:24 AM

The "antler" stamp is interesting. I heard it's Ulm Proof House Mark (?)

I had an Interarms P1 made in West Germany, which I play with some shooting fun. Yeserday, I just noticed there is an antler on the left side of the trigger guard.

Could it be possible that postwar PPK made in West Germany does have that antler stamp, but PPK made in USA does not? So from that sense, the appraiser made his conclusion?

P.S. Very early C96 (such as CH, LRH, early Small Ring) also have a similar stamp on the right side of the chamber, different style. I heard that's "Oberndorf Proof House Mark", and it always shows "halo". I heard the same proof house is now located in Ulm.

Ron Smith · 01-03-2009, 09:48 AM

"Could it be possible that postwar PPK made in West Germany does have that antler stamp, but PPK made in USA does not? So from that sense, the appraiser made his conclusion?"

Alvin,

That's exactly what happened. The Ulm antler proof is only found on imported guns produced there. This PPK is American made under license from Walther.

Edward Tinker · 01-03-2009, 11:26 AM

Deals come up, I've been going to gun shows the last year or show (too many the wife says) and come across the normal too expensive lugers and p38's. last weekend i came across a pre-war PPK with correct brown grips and extensition magazine for $450 out the door. The grips alone were worth half the money, I bought it and traded / sold it to a friend of mine the next day.

Ed

Vlim · 01-03-2009, 02:26 PM

Guys,

The Antler is indeed the marking of the Ulm proof house. Both Walther and Mauser (Parabellum / HSC) used the services of the Ulm proof house, as it's close to both companies.

Because proofing at a proof house comes with a price tag, and there is no need for official proofs on a USA market gun, the companies decided to have only those guns proofed that were destined for non-USA delivery.

Mauser introduced an in-house proof ('FBM') as an alternative for USA guns. I don't know what Walther did.

One of the former Mauser engineers went to work for Carl Walther afterwards, I'll try to ask him what he knows about the USA export guns.

Interesting side note: Interarms was responsible for setting up the USA production of Walther pistols. One of the daughters of Sam Cummings, the late Interarms chairman, used a USA Walther to shoot her husband. That wasn't good brand marketing.

alvin · 01-05-2009, 07:21 AM

I have deeper questions on proof and antler stamp....need help from domain experts:

(1) As shown in the above West Germany P1, it has both Eagle over N commercial proof, and Ulm antler mark. May I assume the gun was proofed twice? E/N stamped in factory, and antler stamped in the outside proof house, probably later.

Also, E/N and antler appear on H&K P7.

(2) Even more interesting is early Mauser C96. It always has C/C/U on left side of the chamber. I would assume that's equivalent of E/N, in Mauser style. On early Mauser, the gun also has an antler on the right side of the chamber. I heard that's "Oberndorf Proof House Mark". The C/C/U does not show halo, supposed to be applied in the factory before the gun was blued. The antler stamp has halo (see a sample gun picture attached), obviously applied after the gun being blued. Looks like it was proofed twice.... once in "white" steel while in factory, and once in finished form in the proof house.

Make any sense?

pipeman45 · 01-05-2009, 12:21 PM

Nice going there.
Just goes to prove, I'd rather be lucky than good LOL

Vlim · 01-05-2009, 12:42 PM

Alvin,

The Eagle/N and the Antler (together with the year code) are struck by the proof house at the same time.

Eagle/N denotes the sort of proof (Nitro Proof), the Antler (or other marking) identifies the proof house that did the job and the year code is simply to show in what year it was proofed.

waltherguy · 01-05-2009, 02:27 PM

Nice buy Ron... This one made my day :-)

12-31-2008, 07:16 PM	#1
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"Not a real Walther" I thought some of you may get a chuckle out of this... I know I'm happy. I haven't been in a position to be spending money on guns lately, but couldn't walk away from this one. Stopped at a "buy and sell" 2nd hand place with a friend yesterday. They had a few junk guns at premium prices. I looked in the pistol case, and down on the bottom shelf I saw this. It appears nearly unfired, probably a house gun. Original pebble grain vinyl box and all paper work in tact. The price was $329.00. I asked why so cheap? The guy said, "It's not a real Walther PPK. Just some kind of knock-off. We have an appraiser that told us that a real Walther should have an antler on it." I've been looking for one at a decent price for a carry gun. Think I found it... I'm also thinking of sending their appraiser a love letter. Ron Attached Thumbnails __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-31-2008, 08:51 PM	#2
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Ron I like your junk sale!!!! I always think about these deals but never happens. Way to go!! Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

12-31-2008, 09:03 PM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Bill, I almost told them that it was, a Walther. Then decided, who am I to argue with a certified gun appaiser, and kept my mouth shut. I never go into these places, and almost waited in the rig while my friend went in. Glad that I decided to now. Thanks... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-31-2008, 10:07 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Sweet! I have a PPK/S that spends a bit of time in my hip pocket. Paid about the same for it. Would have preferred a PPK but glad to have the one I have. (Wanna swap? ) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-01-2009, 01:15 AM	#6
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Hehe, what a great find, luck was on your side Ron I'm with Bill however, i never find these type of sales __________________ Went Blakely

12-31-2008, 09:50 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Nice carry gun! Good find Ron Ed

01-01-2009, 06:28 AM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Wow. Should give appraiser a big medal. It's a myth how they work, they must know detail of many types of guns and don't mix them up, that's hard. Attached Images

01-01-2009, 08:11 AM	#8
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Ron, Nice buy!, did you see if he had any more of those "knock Offs" in the back room ? Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

01-01-2009, 09:16 AM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ron, I would need to think about it...no. I've had two PPKS' in the past, but always wanted a PPK. When I ran across the rare one now and then, the dealer's always wanted a premium for them. There was one on GB a few months ago, but there again, the guy wanted way too much for it. The new S&W version isn't reliable from what I have heard. And has the long tang which defeats the compactness. Alvin, I have worked in , and hung around in gun shops long enough to know that most "experts" , ain't. Went, I have always dreamt about deals like this myself. This is a first. Jim, Most of the guns they had were cheap stuff that most of us wouldn't look at twice. When I first glanced at the "unWalther", I thought that it was an old Jennings or Raven until I saw the manual behind it. Thanks guys... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said... Last edited by Ron Smith; 01-01-2009 at 09:34 AM.

01-03-2009, 08:24 AM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The "antler" stamp is interesting. I heard it's Ulm Proof House Mark (?) I had an Interarms P1 made in West Germany, which I play with some shooting fun. Yeserday, I just noticed there is an antler on the left side of the trigger guard. Could it be possible that postwar PPK made in West Germany does have that antler stamp, but PPK made in USA does not? So from that sense, the appraiser made his conclusion? P.S. Very early C96 (such as CH, LRH, early Small Ring) also have a similar stamp on the right side of the chamber, different style. I heard that's "Oberndorf Proof House Mark", and it always shows "halo". I heard the same proof house is now located in Ulm. Attached Thumbnails

01-03-2009, 09:48 AM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"Could it be possible that postwar PPK made in West Germany does have that antler stamp, but PPK made in USA does not? So from that sense, the appraiser made his conclusion?" Alvin, That's exactly what happened. The Ulm antler proof is only found on imported guns produced there. This PPK is American made under license from Walther. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-03-2009, 11:26 AM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Deals come up, I've been going to gun shows the last year or show (too many the wife says) and come across the normal too expensive lugers and p38's. last weekend i came across a pre-war PPK with correct brown grips and extensition magazine for $450 out the door. The grips alone were worth half the money, I bought it and traded / sold it to a friend of mine the next day. Ed

01-03-2009, 02:26 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Guys, The Antler is indeed the marking of the Ulm proof house. Both Walther and Mauser (Parabellum / HSC) used the services of the Ulm proof house, as it's close to both companies. Because proofing at a proof house comes with a price tag, and there is no need for official proofs on a USA market gun, the companies decided to have only those guns proofed that were destined for non-USA delivery. Mauser introduced an in-house proof ('FBM') as an alternative for USA guns. I don't know what Walther did. One of the former Mauser engineers went to work for Carl Walther afterwards, I'll try to ask him what he knows about the USA export guns. Interesting side note: Interarms was responsible for setting up the USA production of Walther pistols. One of the daughters of Sam Cummings, the late Interarms chairman, used a USA Walther to shoot her husband. That wasn't good brand marketing.

01-05-2009, 07:21 AM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I have deeper questions on proof and antler stamp....need help from domain experts: (1) As shown in the above West Germany P1, it has both Eagle over N commercial proof, and Ulm antler mark. May I assume the gun was proofed twice? E/N stamped in factory, and antler stamped in the outside proof house, probably later. Also, E/N and antler appear on H&K P7. (2) Even more interesting is early Mauser C96. It always has C/C/U on left side of the chamber. I would assume that's equivalent of E/N, in Mauser style. On early Mauser, the gun also has an antler on the right side of the chamber. I heard that's "Oberndorf Proof House Mark". The C/C/U does not show halo, supposed to be applied in the factory before the gun was blued. The antler stamp has halo (see a sample gun picture attached), obviously applied after the gun being blued. Looks like it was proofed twice.... once in "white" steel while in factory, and once in finished form in the proof house. Make any sense? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by alvin; 01-05-2009 at 08:32 AM.

01-05-2009, 12:21 PM	#15
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Nice going there. Just goes to prove, I'd rather be lucky than good LOL

01-05-2009, 12:42 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Alvin, The Eagle/N and the Antler (together with the year code) are struck by the proof house at the same time. Eagle/N denotes the sort of proof (Nitro Proof), the Antler (or other marking) identifies the proof house that did the job and the year code is simply to show in what year it was proofed. Attached Images

01-05-2009, 02:27 PM	#17
waltherguy User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: FL Posts: 201 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nice buy Ron... This one made my day :-) __________________ "In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine" -Field Marshal Erwin Rommel