long frames and relieved sears

Heinz · 07-23-2002, 09:24 PM

I have no idea what the distinguishing features of a "long frame" or a "relieved sear" Could some one please enlihten me?? Maybe even a picture?

Thank you kindly
Heinz

Doubs · 07-23-2002, 10:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Heinz:
<strong>I have no idea what the distinguishing features of a "long frame" or a "relieved sear" Could some one please enlihten me?? Maybe even a picture? Thank you kindly Heinz</strong><hr></blockquote>

Heinz, the earlier Lugers were made on a "long" frame which is physically longer than the later "short" frame. The difference is not much but there is a difference. In profile, the two frames will be slightly different just in front of, and above, the trigger guard. The long frame has a more graceful and less severe curve to it. The short frame will appear to be more "squared". Production of the long and short frames actually overlap depending upon who ordered what. The slides will also vary in length according to what frame they were to be used on.

The sear or "trigger bar" on earlier pistols were cut so that the safety, if activated, prevented the action from being opened because the bar would strike the safety and prevent the action from moving far enough rearward to open. Later guns were made with a "relieved" bar that permitted the action to be opened when the safety was applied. Many of the earlier guns were also modified in this manner. It was a simple matter to mill the trigger bar back further.

Doubs · 07-23-2002, 10:24 PM

Reply hit by mistake

wterrell · 07-23-2002, 10:28 PM

Doubs,

I have done that dozens of times. After hitting the reply button, to cancel the reply, just hit the "Back" button on your browser. The reply never gets posted.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Doubs · 07-24-2002, 12:41 AM

Rick, the long frame slide is approximately 5/64 of an inch longer than the short frame receiver with the entire difference being in the length of the receiver ring from the face of the breechblock forward. The toggle train should be the same in both the long and short frames. This is according to "Lugers At Ramdom" by Charles Kenyon, page 23.

Wes, thanks for the tip. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Hugh · 07-24-2002, 02:05 AM

The toggle train parts are the same, but the barrels are not interchangable, the long frame bbls have a longer threaded portion. [img]cool.gif[/img]

Lugerdoc · 07-24-2002, 08:43 AM

Most long frame lugers, including the Swiss and Mauser Parabellum, were made with a grip safety, which has a sear that is cut in the opposite angle to the standard relieved or unrelieved trigger bar. I have plenty of this type available if needed.

Pete Ebbink · 07-24-2002, 09:42 PM

I think I read in Fred A. Datig's book from the 1950's that all long framed lugers have a 4-groove barrel twist and all short frame lugers have a 6-groove barrel twist.

This was info. based in the 1950's....

Is this still considered "true" ?

Regards,

Pete

Heinz · 07-24-2002, 10:46 PM

Gentlemen, Thank you all for your assistance. I I now know why the togle on my 1915 will not crank open when the safety is on and the .30 cal post WWI commercial I had years ago would. I thought I was just remembering wrong.

Thanks on both questions, Heinz

07-23-2002, 09:24 PM	#1
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	long frames and relieved sears I have no idea what the distinguishing features of a "long frame" or a "relieved sear" Could some one please enlihten me?? Maybe even a picture? Thank you kindly Heinz

07-23-2002, 10:28 PM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Doubs, I have done that dozens of times. After hitting the reply button, to cancel the reply, just hit the "Back" button on your browser. The reply never gets posted. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-24-2002, 02:05 AM	#6
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	The toggle train parts are the same, but the barrels are not interchangable, the long frame bbls have a longer threaded portion. [img]cool.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-24-2002, 08:43 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Most long frame lugers, including the Swiss and Mauser Parabellum, were made with a grip safety, which has a sear that is cut in the opposite angle to the standard relieved or unrelieved trigger bar. I have plenty of this type available if needed. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-23-2002, 10:22 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Heinz: <strong>I have no idea what the distinguishing features of a "long frame" or a "relieved sear" Could some one please enlihten me?? Maybe even a picture? Thank you kindly Heinz</strong><hr></blockquote> Heinz, the earlier Lugers were made on a "long" frame which is physically longer than the later "short" frame. The difference is not much but there is a difference. In profile, the two frames will be slightly different just in front of, and above, the trigger guard. The long frame has a more graceful and less severe curve to it. The short frame will appear to be more "squared". Production of the long and short frames actually overlap depending upon who ordered what. The slides will also vary in length according to what frame they were to be used on. The sear or "trigger bar" on earlier pistols were cut so that the safety, if activated, prevented the action from being opened because the bar would strike the safety and prevent the action from moving far enough rearward to open. Later guns were made with a "relieved" bar that permitted the action to be opened when the safety was applied. Many of the earlier guns were also modified in this manner. It was a simple matter to mill the trigger bar back further.

07-23-2002, 10:24 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Reply hit by mistake

07-24-2002, 12:41 AM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Rick, the long frame slide is approximately 5/64 of an inch longer than the short frame receiver with the entire difference being in the length of the receiver ring from the face of the breechblock forward. The toggle train should be the same in both the long and short frames. This is according to "Lugers At Ramdom" by Charles Kenyon, page 23. Wes, thanks for the tip. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

07-24-2002, 09:42 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I think I read in Fred A. Datig's book from the 1950's that all long framed lugers have a 4-groove barrel twist and all short frame lugers have a 6-groove barrel twist. This was info. based in the 1950's.... Is this still considered "true" ? Regards, Pete

07-24-2002, 10:46 PM	#9
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Gentlemen, Thank you all for your assistance. I I now know why the togle on my 1915 will not crank open when the safety is on and the .30 cal post WWI commercial I had years ago would. I thought I was just remembering wrong. Thanks on both questions, Heinz