Rust Blue brand/solution?

Tony S. · 12-19-2008, 05:34 PM

Where can I find the rust blue mixture that closely resembles the German's rust blue mixture used for Lugers? What is the Brand?
Thanks.

"SEMPER PARATUS"

Sieger · 12-19-2008, 09:01 PM

Hi:

Google "Brownells".

They sold two different types, the last I checked.

Sieger

Chuckc · 12-20-2008, 12:34 PM

Brownells sells Hydrochloric acid based solutions that deliver a darker color than the originals. The solution that delivers the original color is nitric acid based. I posted the formula a while back. Search on rust blue. Should bring it up.

Ice · 03-02-2009, 03:42 PM

Haven't used it on a Luger but I have used Phil Pilkington's Rust Blue solution on other firearms - a S&W Mod 10, a Colt 1903, a Winchester 94 and several others.

The color didn't come out dark for me - color shade depends on humidity, metal composition, ambient temp and number of times applied - but rather a pleasant antique looking blue gray. Here are a couple of photos of a rusty pitted Colt that I "restored". The pics give a pretty true idea of the color achieved.

Hope this helps. The blueing solution is available from Brownells.

Charlie

chuck17 · 03-02-2009, 10:21 PM

Ice- Was that the Pilkington's Classic American Rust Bluing Solution? How many applications of the Pilkingtons did you apply to get that color?
Thanks,
Chuck

Ice · 03-03-2009, 05:17 AM

Chuck, yes thats the Pilkington American Rust Blueing solution. I applied 5 coats; wanted a darker color but thats as dark as it would get. Actually it looks pretty good on the old Colt, I think.

Charlie

Went Blakely · 03-04-2009, 11:23 AM

Does look good, nicely done Sir!

chuck17 · 03-04-2009, 10:20 PM

I agree. That does look good!

Did you completely strip the old finish off, or blend it into the old finish? How did you do it?

Thanks,
-Chuck

Ice · 03-05-2009, 11:28 AM

I use Brownells Steel White to chemically strip the old finish. Depending on pitting/marring I carefully draw file the metal or if marring is light I use Wet or Dry paper to resurface the metal. I back the Wet or Dry with a pink eraser or one of those hard rubber body tools from the auto parts store for flat work. For curved surfaces I wrap the paper around a wooden dowel of proper diameter. For me, one of the keys to good work is to study the finish on an original unretouched specimen and try to duplicate the polishing directions, the grain flows and the surface appearance. All of my work is done by hand with the exception of polishing revolver cylinder flutes because thats the only way that I can precisely control the result. Even the cylinder flutes are touched up by hand after polishing to duplicate the overall appearance of the gun. The key is to keep flat surfaces flat and curved surfaces curved, all without ripples, dips, blurring the lettering and markings and without dishing out the screw and pin holes.

Since I am set up to only do kitchen table rust blueing I don't polish to finer than 400. The rust blue has an etching quality that makes a finer polish unnecessary.

I'm not a professional but have received favorable comments from both pros and collectors on occasion but in the end I just do the work for the enjoyment of bringing an abused - and non collectible - firearm back to its original state or as close as possible.

Sorry for the long explanation. I hope this helps.

Merick · 03-06-2009, 12:31 PM

I have used the brownells brand on a shotgun and it turned out well, but I am not sure this would be 100% correct for a luger. I would add to Ice's comments that to help keep flat surfaces flat, always sand with a block where you can, and to be careful not to round off corners. Go easy around stamps and other marks.

Keeping everything oil free is critical. Break cleaner is good at this and cheap, also I keep my steel wool for carding in some acetone, that way if I do contaminate things slightly they get cleaned off as I work each rust cycle. Keep an eye on the rust progress, too much will etch the metal, not enough doesn't get anything done. It should look good and "flat" to velvety but not much more. Also don't short your parts on boil time or you won't get a good conversion from red oxide to black.

Don't forget when you get bored you won't do your best work. Rust blue is something you can do but it is tedious. So if you loose focus get to a point where you can leave things and take a break for an hour or call it a day, otherwise you won't be happy with the results.

Went Blakely · 03-07-2009, 02:44 AM

I dont want to stray too far away from the luger topic at hand, but, has anyone used that 'Blue Wonder' gun blue system? If you wanted to differ from the original look of the luger, for a beat up shooter? Also, polishing before hand, (depending how fine and shiny you go), will offer a deeper, glossier end result, after bluing, yes?

Merick · 03-07-2009, 09:24 PM

No. Like Ice says, it is pointless to go past 400 grit for rust bluing as it will etch the metal to about this point anyway. And on a cold blue a fine polish will give your finish nothing to hold to. The point of bluing is it creates microscopic pits, so small that they absorb light and look blue/black. These pits also hold oil and protect the gun. A high polish is going to get you nowhere in either case.

If your shooter is savagely beaten, mismatched, and has no finish and you can not oil it regularly then a cold finish is better than nothing. Rust bluing is approximating what is original and only takes 4-6 evenings (after you figured out how to do it on something else).

Oiling it regularly is better than a cold finish or re-rust bluing, and is also the easiest cheapest course of action.

Please don't polish it, It looks cheesy, destroys any collector value. Think of it this way, if you had a classic Ferrari that was a little rough around the edges, you wouldn't spray paint flames on it. Even though it may seem cool at the time, it is not the right thing to do.

Went Blakely · 03-08-2009, 02:56 AM

Thanks, makes sense. I wouldn't polish it, but was just curious as to what type of results it would bring.

sheepherder · 03-08-2009, 07:29 AM

I hesitate to stray off-topic...but has anyone tried Parkerizing their [old, not collectible] Luger???

I've read that the Finnish Lahti's were Parked when arsenal refinished; I have one, and it looks good (but I'm not 100% sure whether it's Parked or blued). I have Parkerizing capability here (AR-15 man!), but not blueing.

My "shooter" Luger was re-blued in the past, and looks good. I'd like to match my new in-the-white barrel to it, rather than strip and re-do the whole pistol.

The main issue in Parkerizing it is that I'm not sure how good it would look just scrubbed and Parked; versus bead-blasting and Parking. All my AR-15's have been [fine] sand blasted before Parkerizing; but I'd like to keep the Luger flats shiny, not rough.

Ice · 03-08-2009, 10:19 AM

Postino, parkerizing really needs a pre-beadblast to really look good. Yoou could mask off the flats before blasting but I'm not sure that they would stay shiny after the Park. Is there somebody who does reblueing in your town? They would probably be happy to drop the barrel in the tank along with the other parts if it was properly polished. They would probably do it for cheap too.

Charlie

Went Blakely · 03-08-2009, 11:12 AM

Even then, after blasting, i'm not really a fan of the parkerizing look. You can mess around with different amounts of zinc and manganese in the mix to get it darker (preferential imho) but it still doesn't look as good as bluing. Just my 2c

chuck17 · 03-08-2009, 01:16 PM

I will reluctantly admit (I am Bubba!) that I have actually stripped, sanded, sandblasted with Alum. Oxide, zinc-Parkerized, and Gun-Koted (matte black) a Luger that was pretty badly pitted. The Parkerizing and GunKoting do not destroy the markings but they do hide imperfections somewhat. The bore (good bore) was plugged with the rubber plugs from Brownells when I parked it. I only parked the frame, receiver and sideplate, but I did GunKote the toggle train. I am still planning to straw the appropriate parts. If I was to do it again, I would use the gun-metal blue Gun-Kote. It now has a super tough, pretty-good looking finish and is a great shooter.

I had originally tried the Brownells Dichropan IM on it but I didn't like it. On my next project, I am going to give the Rust bluing a try.

-Chuck

waltherPP · 03-21-2009, 05:20 PM

Hallo,
sorry i speak very bad english.
Your restoured is very very good.
What is zinc-Parkerized of German ?
I thank you for the answers !

Many greet

Dirk

alvin · 03-21-2009, 07:09 PM

Using Zinc to fill in those pits?

chuck17 · 03-21-2009, 08:36 PM

I am not a chemist, but this is my understanding. Parkerizing was a brand name for a conversion process of the surface of the metal using zinc phosphate or manganese phosphate. The name parkerizing has passed into the language, like kleenex or band-aid. The zinc phosphate parkerized surface provides a gray surface and a finer crystalline structure, which is supposed to be a better surface for GunKote and other brands of spray-on finishes to adhere to. The manganese phosphate surface is a darker charcoal gray to black finish with a thicker crystalline structure. Many military weapons have been parkerized as it is an excellent finish to hold oil on the surface of the metal. Parkerizing is an easy finish to apply, but if you try it make sure to plug the bore. You can buy it from Brownells or Midway.

12-19-2008, 05:34 PM	#1
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rust Blue brand/solution? Where can I find the rust blue mixture that closely resembles the German's rust blue mixture used for Lugers? What is the Brand? Thanks. "SEMPER PARATUS"

12-20-2008, 12:34 PM	#3
Chuckc User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cave Creek, AZ Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Brownells sells Hydrochloric acid based solutions that deliver a darker color than the originals. The solution that delivers the original color is nitric acid based. I posted the formula a while back. Search on rust blue. Should bring it up. __________________ Art in metal and wood

03-04-2009, 11:23 AM	#7
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Does look good, nicely done Sir! __________________ Went Blakely

03-07-2009, 02:44 AM	#11
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	I dont want to stray too far away from the luger topic at hand, but, has anyone used that 'Blue Wonder' gun blue system? If you wanted to differ from the original look of the luger, for a beat up shooter? Also, polishing before hand, (depending how fine and shiny you go), will offer a deeper, glossier end result, after bluing, yes? __________________ Went Blakely

03-08-2009, 02:56 AM	#13
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks, makes sense. I wouldn't polish it, but was just curious as to what type of results it would bring. __________________ Went Blakely

12-19-2008, 09:01 PM	#2
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi: Google "Brownells". They sold two different types, the last I checked. Sieger

03-02-2009, 03:42 PM	#4
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Haven't used it on a Luger but I have used Phil Pilkington's Rust Blue solution on other firearms - a S&W Mod 10, a Colt 1903, a Winchester 94 and several others. The color didn't come out dark for me - color shade depends on humidity, metal composition, ambient temp and number of times applied - but rather a pleasant antique looking blue gray. Here are a couple of photos of a rusty pitted Colt that I "restored". The pics give a pretty true idea of the color achieved. Hope this helps. The blueing solution is available from Brownells. Charlie

03-02-2009, 10:21 PM	#5
chuck17 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fla Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Ice- Was that the Pilkington's Classic American Rust Bluing Solution? How many applications of the Pilkingtons did you apply to get that color? Thanks, Chuck

03-03-2009, 05:17 AM	#6
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Chuck, yes thats the Pilkington American Rust Blueing solution. I applied 5 coats; wanted a darker color but thats as dark as it would get. Actually it looks pretty good on the old Colt, I think. Charlie

03-04-2009, 10:20 PM	#8
chuck17 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fla Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	I agree. That does look good! Did you completely strip the old finish off, or blend it into the old finish? How did you do it? Thanks, -Chuck

03-05-2009, 11:28 AM	#9
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	I use Brownells Steel White to chemically strip the old finish. Depending on pitting/marring I carefully draw file the metal or if marring is light I use Wet or Dry paper to resurface the metal. I back the Wet or Dry with a pink eraser or one of those hard rubber body tools from the auto parts store for flat work. For curved surfaces I wrap the paper around a wooden dowel of proper diameter. For me, one of the keys to good work is to study the finish on an original unretouched specimen and try to duplicate the polishing directions, the grain flows and the surface appearance. All of my work is done by hand with the exception of polishing revolver cylinder flutes because thats the only way that I can precisely control the result. Even the cylinder flutes are touched up by hand after polishing to duplicate the overall appearance of the gun. The key is to keep flat surfaces flat and curved surfaces curved, all without ripples, dips, blurring the lettering and markings and without dishing out the screw and pin holes. Since I am set up to only do kitchen table rust blueing I don't polish to finer than 400. The rust blue has an etching quality that makes a finer polish unnecessary. I'm not a professional but have received favorable comments from both pros and collectors on occasion but in the end I just do the work for the enjoyment of bringing an abused - and non collectible - firearm back to its original state or as close as possible. Sorry for the long explanation. I hope this helps.

03-06-2009, 12:31 PM	#10
Merick User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 32 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I have used the brownells brand on a shotgun and it turned out well, but I am not sure this would be 100% correct for a luger. I would add to Ice's comments that to help keep flat surfaces flat, always sand with a block where you can, and to be careful not to round off corners. Go easy around stamps and other marks. Keeping everything oil free is critical. Break cleaner is good at this and cheap, also I keep my steel wool for carding in some acetone, that way if I do contaminate things slightly they get cleaned off as I work each rust cycle. Keep an eye on the rust progress, too much will etch the metal, not enough doesn't get anything done. It should look good and "flat" to velvety but not much more. Also don't short your parts on boil time or you won't get a good conversion from red oxide to black. Don't forget when you get bored you won't do your best work. Rust blue is something you can do but it is tedious. So if you loose focus get to a point where you can leave things and take a break for an hour or call it a day, otherwise you won't be happy with the results.

03-07-2009, 09:24 PM	#12
Merick User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 32 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	No. Like Ice says, it is pointless to go past 400 grit for rust bluing as it will etch the metal to about this point anyway. And on a cold blue a fine polish will give your finish nothing to hold to. The point of bluing is it creates microscopic pits, so small that they absorb light and look blue/black. These pits also hold oil and protect the gun. A high polish is going to get you nowhere in either case. If your shooter is savagely beaten, mismatched, and has no finish and you can not oil it regularly then a cold finish is better than nothing. Rust bluing is approximating what is original and only takes 4-6 evenings (after you figured out how to do it on something else). Oiling it regularly is better than a cold finish or re-rust bluing, and is also the easiest cheapest course of action. Please don't polish it, It looks cheesy, destroys any collector value. Think of it this way, if you had a classic Ferrari that was a little rough around the edges, you wouldn't spray paint flames on it. Even though it may seem cool at the time, it is not the right thing to do.

03-08-2009, 07:29 AM	#14
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	I hesitate to stray off-topic...but has anyone tried Parkerizing their [old, not collectible] Luger??? I've read that the Finnish Lahti's were Parked when arsenal refinished; I have one, and it looks good (but I'm not 100% sure whether it's Parked or blued). I have Parkerizing capability here (AR-15 man!), but not blueing. My "shooter" Luger was re-blued in the past, and looks good. I'd like to match my new in-the-white barrel to it, rather than strip and re-do the whole pistol. The main issue in Parkerizing it is that I'm not sure how good it would look just scrubbed and Parked; versus bead-blasting and Parking. All my AR-15's have been [fine] sand blasted before Parkerizing; but I'd like to keep the Luger flats shiny, not rough.

03-08-2009, 10:19 AM	#15
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Postino, parkerizing really needs a pre-beadblast to really look good. Yoou could mask off the flats before blasting but I'm not sure that they would stay shiny after the Park. Is there somebody who does reblueing in your town? They would probably be happy to drop the barrel in the tank along with the other parts if it was properly polished. They would probably do it for cheap too. Charlie

03-08-2009, 11:12 AM	#16
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Even then, after blasting, i'm not really a fan of the parkerizing look. You can mess around with different amounts of zinc and manganese in the mix to get it darker (preferential imho) but it still doesn't look as good as bluing. Just my 2c __________________ Went Blakely

03-08-2009, 01:16 PM	#17
chuck17 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fla Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	I will reluctantly admit (I am Bubba!) that I have actually stripped, sanded, sandblasted with Alum. Oxide, zinc-Parkerized, and Gun-Koted (matte black) a Luger that was pretty badly pitted. The Parkerizing and GunKoting do not destroy the markings but they do hide imperfections somewhat. The bore (good bore) was plugged with the rubber plugs from Brownells when I parked it. I only parked the frame, receiver and sideplate, but I did GunKote the toggle train. I am still planning to straw the appropriate parts. If I was to do it again, I would use the gun-metal blue Gun-Kote. It now has a super tough, pretty-good looking finish and is a great shooter. I had originally tried the Brownells Dichropan IM on it but I didn't like it. On my next project, I am going to give the Rust bluing a try. -Chuck Attached Thumbnails

03-21-2009, 05:20 PM	#18
waltherPP User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hallo, sorry i speak very bad english. Your restoured is very very good. What is zinc-Parkerized of German ? I thank you for the answers ! Many greet Dirk

03-21-2009, 07:09 PM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Using Zinc to fill in those pits? Last edited by alvin; 03-21-2009 at 08:21 PM.

03-21-2009, 08:36 PM	#20
chuck17 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fla Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	I am not a chemist, but this is my understanding. Parkerizing was a brand name for a conversion process of the surface of the metal using zinc phosphate or manganese phosphate. The name parkerizing has passed into the language, like kleenex or band-aid. The zinc phosphate parkerized surface provides a gray surface and a finer crystalline structure, which is supposed to be a better surface for GunKote and other brands of spray-on finishes to adhere to. The manganese phosphate surface is a darker charcoal gray to black finish with a thicker crystalline structure. Many military weapons have been parkerized as it is an excellent finish to hold oil on the surface of the metal. Parkerizing is an easy finish to apply, but if you try it make sure to plug the bore. You can buy it from Brownells or Midway.