.30 Luger load, ....opinions wanted!

G.T. · 07-03-2002, 02:15 AM

Hi Guys! I've loaded tons of shotshells, but very few pistol rounds! So.... I'm asking our more experienced reloaders, shooters, to give me some info. into the .30 Luger round! I know that reloading can tune a particular load to a particular pistol for optimum accuracy...but that is not what I'm after... I want to load a round that is equal to a factory winchester load, in both velocity, and energy. Here are some of the parimeters... The brass is all factory primed winchester, I plan on using hornady 93 gr. bullets, or sierra 85 gr., as they are .308 dia. and I would not have to fiddle around with sizing and such...... If there are other good bullets available, I would certainly entertain using them, as the afore mentioned bullets seemed pretty expensive....also, what is the best overall length to load the .30 luger too? Any info. you guys can give me along these lines, would be greatly appreciated! Hughs loads were very interesting...gave me a lot of food for thought! Thanks, till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

unspellable · 07-03-2002, 09:06 AM

Winchester uses a bullet with a nominal diameter of 0.3090, max 0.3090, min 0.3060. I pulled one and it measured 0.3090. RWS sells a 0.309 bullet. The nominal groove diameter is 0.311 so these bullets are a bit undersized. The Hornady 0.308 is a bit more undersized.

Accuracy aside, you want to have the load matched to the recoil spring. There are a lot of Lugers around with non-standard recoil springs.

At some future date I will have data on various loads and springs.

Hugh has a posting here with some hotter than factory loads. I recently ran one batch of Winchester and two batches of Fiocchi over the cronograph, all were a somehwat underloaded but the Winchester was the fastest of the three. (Fiocchi runs a 0.308 bullet.) Kyrie thinks the Winchester stuff is hot so maybe there's some batch variation.

Keep in mind that you are not worrying about pressure here. The key is cartridge impulse, a measure of the cartridge's ability to shove the gun back in recoil. It depends on velocity and weight of bullet and powder, but not pressure.

unspellable

G.T. · 07-03-2002, 10:34 AM

Thanks Unspellable, for the feedback! Do you think the manufactures use the small diameter bullets for safty reasons, or do you think there is quite a variance in groove dia.? It appears to me, that one has to initially slug their barrel to get a starting point as to overall bullet dia.?
I will be very interested to hear what you find in your loading tests, how about the rest of you guys? Thor? I know you have a pet load or two! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

unspellable · 07-03-2002, 11:52 AM

I suspect the bullet diameter thing has two causes, one being caution on the part of the manufacturers, the other being that there is a bit too much "common knowledge" as to the barrel diminsions. You will see many references saying 308 or 309 but slug the barrel, there is a lot of variation. In actual fact DWM held very close tolerances and the "variation" is the difference between what everybody "knows" it is and what it actually is. The nominal groove diameter is 0.3110, max 0.3114, min 0.3098. This is from the DWM factory prints. SAAMI specs call for a minumum groove diameter of 0.3090 inch. I have measurements of 17 barrels of various makes including Ruger, Colt, Browning, Mauser, DWM. They run pretty close to the DWM specs. It's the bullets that are so often off size.

In any case, it never hurts to slug your barrel and know what you have. After you slug it send me the measurements for my data base.

unspellable

Doubs · 07-03-2002, 02:58 PM

GT,

The NRA handloading book shows manufacturing specs for the .30 Luger and, IIRC, the groove diameter runs a nominal .310 - .311". Norma bullets that I bought back in the late 1960's were 93 grain, .309" in diameter and made especially for the Luger.

I also own a browning Hi-Power and a Benelli B-80 in .30 Luger and both have tighter chambers than any of my Lugers. Both have groove diameters of .308".

For years I had a commercial DWM Luger from the same time period in which the Finn Contract Lugers were made. I paid $70 for it in 1967 from a Seattle pawn shop and it was perfect except for the stock lug being ground. After the Norma bullets were gone, I used 100 grain Speer "Plinker" bullets that measured .308". Neck tension of the case was all-important because there isn't a crimping groove (cannelure) in the half-jacketed Plinker. The Plinker worked fine and was very accurate. Feeding was positive and reliable.

In more recent years I've come to own several other Lugers in .30 caliber. One, a short barreled Erfurt (no date), belonged to my father. For it I've loaded both exposed lead hollow points and jacketed hollow points that I reduced in diameter from .312" to .310" by running through a sizing die. I also had a custom mold made that drops a nominal 90 grain truncated cone bullet. I should have made the meplat (flat part of the nose) larger but it feeds and shoots as reliably as is possible. The all-matching - except the replacement barrel - Erfurt is my .30 "shooter" at the moment. I've put a very few rounds through my 1906 AE but haven't shot my 1906 Frankenschloss rebuilt Navy with normal toggle train and short barrel. Nor have I shot my 1906 Portugese Army (M2 over the chamber).

I'll have to wait until I get home to verify my powder charges but I believe 5.6 grains of WW-231 is an excellent propellent. Unique is an outstanding powder for the Luger but doesn't meter well so I like to use WW-231. I've seen reports that Vectan, a French powder, is being imported into the US now and I used it for many, many thousands of rounds of 9mm while stationed in England. It's an excellent and clean-burning powder if you can find it. I used BA-9, IIRC.

7.65mm Luger cases were difficult to find at one time and I made them from .223 cases. If you can't find new cases, they're easily made from 9mm Magnum cases or .30 Mauser/Tokarev cases. The case has a rather short neck but even so, the 9x19 Luger case is too short to form .30 Luger cases. Another option may be the 9x23 Winchester or 9mm Largo cases. I haven't tried either but they should work. Just be careful of neck thickness. I have an old take-off Portugese barrel that I use to check chambering of all rounds I plan to use in my Lugers.

The .30 is not difficult to load and is an accurate, reliable round in the Luger. I have a long-time love affair with it and it's one of my favorite cartridges.

G.T. · 07-03-2002, 07:37 PM

Thanks Guys! For the great info.. I shall rethink my approch to loading the .30 luger, based on your guys input! I very much appreciate it... what do you guys use to slug the barrel? as I have probably a half a dozen .30 luger barrels that I could check out FYI ! Again, it is much appreciated! Till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

unspellable · 07-03-2002, 10:11 PM

I use a cast bullet intended for the 32 S&W, 32 Mag, 32-20 line of cartridges for slugging a 30 Luger barrel. They are oversized by just about the right amount.

I've recently bought two lots of 1000 each of Winchester 7.65 brass on eBay. Last time I looked there were still some on eBay. I'm hearing stories that Starline makes the brass.

I pick up quite a few Winchester, Fiocchi, and some Remington/Peters factory loads haunting the gun shows.

unspellable

G.T. · 07-03-2002, 11:10 PM

Hi unspellable! Send me some of the cast bullets, and I will run them through the .30 bbl's I have, if you want too! I sure appreciate the info....the .30 brass I have came off of ebay also! Looks alright to me? Thanks again for the info. if you want me to slug the barrels, drop me an email and we'll get it done! till...later....G.T.

07-03-2002, 02:15 AM	#1
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	.30 Luger load, ....opinions wanted! Hi Guys! I've loaded tons of shotshells, but very few pistol rounds! So.... I'm asking our more experienced reloaders, shooters, to give me some info. into the .30 Luger round! I know that reloading can tune a particular load to a particular pistol for optimum accuracy...but that is not what I'm after... I want to load a round that is equal to a factory winchester load, in both velocity, and energy. Here are some of the parimeters... The brass is all factory primed winchester, I plan on using hornady 93 gr. bullets, or sierra 85 gr., as they are .308 dia. and I would not have to fiddle around with sizing and such...... If there are other good bullets available, I would certainly entertain using them, as the afore mentioned bullets seemed pretty expensive....also, what is the best overall length to load the .30 luger too? Any info. you guys can give me along these lines, would be greatly appreciated! Hughs loads were very interesting...gave me a lot of food for thought! Thanks, till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

07-03-2002, 09:06 AM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Winchester uses a bullet with a nominal diameter of 0.3090, max 0.3090, min 0.3060. I pulled one and it measured 0.3090. RWS sells a 0.309 bullet. The nominal groove diameter is 0.311 so these bullets are a bit undersized. The Hornady 0.308 is a bit more undersized. Accuracy aside, you want to have the load matched to the recoil spring. There are a lot of Lugers around with non-standard recoil springs. At some future date I will have data on various loads and springs. Hugh has a posting here with some hotter than factory loads. I recently ran one batch of Winchester and two batches of Fiocchi over the cronograph, all were a somehwat underloaded but the Winchester was the fastest of the three. (Fiocchi runs a 0.308 bullet.) Kyrie thinks the Winchester stuff is hot so maybe there's some batch variation. Keep in mind that you are not worrying about pressure here. The key is cartridge impulse, a measure of the cartridge's ability to shove the gun back in recoil. It depends on velocity and weight of bullet and powder, but not pressure. unspellable

07-03-2002, 10:34 AM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Thanks Unspellable, for the feedback! Do you think the manufactures use the small diameter bullets for safty reasons, or do you think there is quite a variance in groove dia.? It appears to me, that one has to initially slug their barrel to get a starting point as to overall bullet dia.? I will be very interested to hear what you find in your loading tests, how about the rest of you guys? Thor? I know you have a pet load or two! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

07-03-2002, 11:52 AM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I suspect the bullet diameter thing has two causes, one being caution on the part of the manufacturers, the other being that there is a bit too much "common knowledge" as to the barrel diminsions. You will see many references saying 308 or 309 but slug the barrel, there is a lot of variation. In actual fact DWM held very close tolerances and the "variation" is the difference between what everybody "knows" it is and what it actually is. The nominal groove diameter is 0.3110, max 0.3114, min 0.3098. This is from the DWM factory prints. SAAMI specs call for a minumum groove diameter of 0.3090 inch. I have measurements of 17 barrels of various makes including Ruger, Colt, Browning, Mauser, DWM. They run pretty close to the DWM specs. It's the bullets that are so often off size. In any case, it never hurts to slug your barrel and know what you have. After you slug it send me the measurements for my data base. unspellable

07-03-2002, 02:58 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	GT, The NRA handloading book shows manufacturing specs for the .30 Luger and, IIRC, the groove diameter runs a nominal .310 - .311". Norma bullets that I bought back in the late 1960's were 93 grain, .309" in diameter and made especially for the Luger. I also own a browning Hi-Power and a Benelli B-80 in .30 Luger and both have tighter chambers than any of my Lugers. Both have groove diameters of .308". For years I had a commercial DWM Luger from the same time period in which the Finn Contract Lugers were made. I paid $70 for it in 1967 from a Seattle pawn shop and it was perfect except for the stock lug being ground. After the Norma bullets were gone, I used 100 grain Speer "Plinker" bullets that measured .308". Neck tension of the case was all-important because there isn't a crimping groove (cannelure) in the half-jacketed Plinker. The Plinker worked fine and was very accurate. Feeding was positive and reliable. In more recent years I've come to own several other Lugers in .30 caliber. One, a short barreled Erfurt (no date), belonged to my father. For it I've loaded both exposed lead hollow points and jacketed hollow points that I reduced in diameter from .312" to .310" by running through a sizing die. I also had a custom mold made that drops a nominal 90 grain truncated cone bullet. I should have made the meplat (flat part of the nose) larger but it feeds and shoots as reliably as is possible. The all-matching - except the replacement barrel - Erfurt is my .30 "shooter" at the moment. I've put a very few rounds through my 1906 AE but haven't shot my 1906 Frankenschloss rebuilt Navy with normal toggle train and short barrel. Nor have I shot my 1906 Portugese Army (M2 over the chamber). I'll have to wait until I get home to verify my powder charges but I believe 5.6 grains of WW-231 is an excellent propellent. Unique is an outstanding powder for the Luger but doesn't meter well so I like to use WW-231. I've seen reports that Vectan, a French powder, is being imported into the US now and I used it for many, many thousands of rounds of 9mm while stationed in England. It's an excellent and clean-burning powder if you can find it. I used BA-9, IIRC. 7.65mm Luger cases were difficult to find at one time and I made them from .223 cases. If you can't find new cases, they're easily made from 9mm Magnum cases or .30 Mauser/Tokarev cases. The case has a rather short neck but even so, the 9x19 Luger case is too short to form .30 Luger cases. Another option may be the 9x23 Winchester or 9mm Largo cases. I haven't tried either but they should work. Just be careful of neck thickness. I have an old take-off Portugese barrel that I use to check chambering of all rounds I plan to use in my Lugers. The .30 is not difficult to load and is an accurate, reliable round in the Luger. I have a long-time love affair with it and it's one of my favorite cartridges.

07-03-2002, 07:37 PM	#6
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Thanks Guys! For the great info.. I shall rethink my approch to loading the .30 luger, based on your guys input! I very much appreciate it... what do you guys use to slug the barrel? as I have probably a half a dozen .30 luger barrels that I could check out FYI ! Again, it is much appreciated! Till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

07-03-2002, 10:11 PM	#7
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I use a cast bullet intended for the 32 S&W, 32 Mag, 32-20 line of cartridges for slugging a 30 Luger barrel. They are oversized by just about the right amount. I've recently bought two lots of 1000 each of Winchester 7.65 brass on eBay. Last time I looked there were still some on eBay. I'm hearing stories that Starline makes the brass. I pick up quite a few Winchester, Fiocchi, and some Remington/Peters factory loads haunting the gun shows. unspellable

07-03-2002, 11:10 PM	#8
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Hi unspellable! Send me some of the cast bullets, and I will run them through the .30 bbl's I have, if you want too! I sure appreciate the info....the .30 brass I have came off of ebay also! Looks alright to me? Thanks again for the info. if you want me to slug the barrels, drop me an email and we'll get it done! till...later....G.T.