Some Comments & Questions on Ammo

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

I have some l943 Luger ammo that functions perfect in my Lugers. However; I have quit shooting it because of it being a collector item.
Lonnie

[jim haycraft]

Thank you, gentlemen; useful comment and good advice!

[max2cam]

Hearing that a Luger is as reliable as the .45 1911 Government Model made me laugh. How many of us would bet our lives on that claim? I own both and I know that I woudn't. I KNOW which one is more reliable. The .45 is a hog while many Lugers have a finicky appetite. I think that's established beyond doubt. That's not even talking about mud or dirt....

You can't go by those 1907 tests. That the older 1905 .45 Colt which was soon obsolete. It's the 1911 Model that the comparison should be made with. Granted, it's a newer design than the Luger and lots of progress had been made in semi-auto pistol design.

You really do have to find the right mag and ammo combo for many Lugers. And don't think the Winchester ammo is a cure-all either. My Luger hates it, but functions nicely with other brands.

[wterrell]

max2cam

Hold on there! Many shooters try to go 'cheap'. So they buy inferior bullets or reload on the cheap.
Put regular gas in a Rolls Royce and then say that a Chevy is definitely better?

[unspellable]

A pistol that will handle hardball, semi-wadcutters, and full wadcutters with perfect reliability for ten years and a lot of shooting is not "finicky".

Put a really tired 70 year old spring in the magazine, drop it on its head a few times, put a mismatched recoil spring in the frame, and cut back the powder charge until it won't shove the slaide all the way back and the 1911 will suddenly get "finicky" too.

The 1911 is like a Harley, no matter how many times it stops, it's still the most reliable pistol around.

[John Sabato]

A very happy 75th birthday to you Jim!

[jim haycraft]

To John: Thank you sir, for your birthday greetings and on a personal note - my prayers for you and your family at a time of need.

" More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of."

(Alfred Tennyson)

[max2cam]

Somebody around here needs a reality check -- maybe me.

But if the Luger were so gosh-darned reliable as some guys are saying, you would think they would still be a top choice in the world of semi-auto pistols with lots of custom combat specials being made for top buck.

But somehow I see lots of .45 Govt. Model clones and customs on the market, but very few Lugers clones and customs.

This strikes me as strange as the Luger is a beautifully handling and accurate pistol. But if it can stand up to the .45 and other semi autos in reliability, where is its following except among collectors and a few excentric shooters like myself?

[wterrell]

[quote] if the Luger were so gosh-darned reliable <hr></blockquote>

Where is the Dussenburg? Locomobile? Auburn? They were a darn sight better than a Ford or Chevy.

[max2cam]

Perhaps you're talking elegance and I'm talking reliability. Two totally different things.

I couldn't agree more that the Luger is elegant. But I have never heard yet of having to match the right ammo to the right magazine in a .45. That seems to be very common advice in a Luger.

[unspellable]

The reason you don't have to match the right factory ammo to a 1911 is none of the manufacturers make the wrong ammo. On the other hand, they very definitely do make the wrong ammo for the Luger. Not only in terms of powder charge and velocity, but also in terms of bullet design and for all I know the OAL. No pistol can be expected to function with ammo that does not meet the specs for that pistol. The Fiocchi 7.65 load is far too weak to operate a Luger reliably with the standard 7.65 recoil spring. Cut the powder charge in half and the standard issue 1911 won't be so reliable either.

As for the 1911 magazine, put in a weak spring and bash it with a ball peen hammer a few times before you decide whether or not you need to change it. The original vintage Luger magazines are all over 55 years old now. The majority are pushing 75 years or more. They have been exposed to every sort of abuse during that time.

The vintage Luger went out of production because it took a lot of machine time to mnufacture it, not because it didn't work. Many countries adopted it. You can be shure most of them torture tested it first.

In general, the "goodness" of a product does not correlate to how well it sells. Marketing and many other influences enter the picture. Show me the best selling product in any line and I'll show you the one that isn't the best at what it does. Pennzoil is probably the best selling motor oil on the market, but it's also about the poorest brand name oil. They spend a lot on advertising. The biggest difference between a $10 and a $20 dollar bottle of whiskey is $8 worth of advertising. The primary reason the US didn't adopt the Luger was the, "It wasn't invented here." syndrome. The Beretta wasn't either but look at the politics and bruhaha that went into adopting it and the controversy afterwards.

The 1911 has enjoyed many years and many dollars worth of developement work to make a target gun out of it or a carry piece. No one has spent 5% of that on developing the Luger. In spite of which it does hold at least one world target championship. One of the big reasons no one tried to develope the Luger for target work is that in this country we shoot bull's eye and that game is stacked in favor of the 45.

I still say if your Luger and your ammo is right it will go bang. Period. The 1911 won't go bang if it ain't right. When I want malfunctions I refer to an AMT 380 I had. At least one to every magazine full or triple your money back. No matter what magazine or what ammo. Still I bet somebody out there has one that works.

[wterrell]

[quote]But I have never heard yet of having to match the right ammo to the right magazine in a .45. <hr></blockquote>

Again we are back to putting regular or 'drip' gasoline in a Rolls Royce. How do you expect it to run?

[max2cam]

I donâ??t know what octane fuel a Rolls Royce requires -- regular or premium -- but I do know something about engines. If you put higher octane gas into an engine that doesnâ??t need it you are wasting your money as there is no benefit.

Nor do I have any experience with Rolls Royce autos, but I do have experience with English sports cars and esp. English motorcycles back in the 1960s and 1970s. You could put the worldâ??s highest octane gas in them and they would still break down, leak, and the electrics would die. Surely weâ??ve all heard the phrase: â??Lucas, Prince of Darkness.â?�

Being an English automobile, I imagine the Rolls Royce is just as troublesome. Comparing the Luger to an English car is no compliment in my opinion, but actually a slur. If you want to talk about a great vehicle, that would be my BMW motorcycle: wonderful engineering, top-quality manufacturing, and 100% reliability on regular gas.

As for modern 9mm ammo not always being ideal for the Luger, who would deny that? But if there is ONE absolute correct and reliable loading for the Luger, I have yet to hear of it or find it. Rather, I hear about lots of testing with each Luger seeming to have a mind of its own as to what brand or loading of ammo each individual gun will function reliably on.

I then read in an old Guns & Ammo magazine an article by a Luger expert that I'm supposed to cut off some of my recoil spring to make my Luger function properly. On the other hand, I'm told if I use too hot 9mm, I'll wreck my gun that way too.

As to Luger mags all being 55-75 years old, that is not true for mine. I have a nice DDR mag and a new repro mag. PMP ammo works very well with the DDR mag, but not in the new repro mag. Russian ammo works very well in the new repro mag, but not in the DDR mag. Winchester (the great favorite of many) doesnâ??t work well in either mag. Maybe mine is the only one, but itâ??s a finicky eater. My WWII issue .45 is not.

If the Luger had been the best pistol available at the time, the U.S. military would surely have adopted it. That is proven by the fact they adopted (stole) the M93-M98 Mauser designs to make the M1903 Springfield -- although in many ways they botched the job.

As to the Luger being as reliable as the .45 Govt. Model, hereâ??s what John Walter says in The Luger Story, p. 60: â??Colt-Brownings were usually less accurate than the Lugers, but were more reliable and undoubtedly stronger. One gun fired 6000 rounds without misfires or parts breakages, a performance no Luger would ever match.â?�

We can presume that when these early military tests were made, the Lugers had the RIGHT ammo, NEW magazines, and perfectly functioning guns. What was true then is true now: the Luger is a nice-looking, excellent handling, fun shooter. But perhaps it is a bit over-engineered and reliability suffers to some degree as a result when compared to the .45 Govt. Model (and to BMW motorcycles).

[wterrell]

Arguments can be made for the case of a Jeep being superior to a Lincoln Continental, also. That is why there are Jeep buyers. They agree with an argument which supports their desire.

If I knew the URL of the .45 1911 Government Model community, I would post it for you so that you could spend this holiday weekend lolling about discussing the great advantages of this piece of iron with others of like persuasion and be as happy as a pig in the mud.

Too bad that you have to spend time on a forum devoted to a piece of crap pistol, the Luger.

(The Colt .45 must have been a piece of crap, also, for it is no longer manufactured. That is nice that everything that is no longer manufactured is a piece of crap. Makes the world easier to understand.)

[max2cam]

Am I to take it that if we do not all click heels and proclaim the Luger to be superior to all other pistols in every respect that we somehow fail a loyalty test?

And that we must proclaim this supposed Luger superiority in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary some of it gained first hand?

I paid more for my Luger than most of my other guns -- and that for a less than perfect speciman. I have wanted a Luger all my life and it's my favorite gun -- although it is just a shooter and most collectors would sneer at it,

But just by looking at it I can see that it's more of a engineering and machinist's work of art than it is a sidearm suitable for trench warfare or modern combat. It has delicate parts. It is very precisely fitted. God forbid you get dirt or sand into the action. The same is generally not true of the .45 Govt. Model.

I think these are generally accepted observations....

[AGE]

Wes,

The .45 Colt, both the single action revolver and the 1911 automatic, are still being made by Colt and a host of copycats. Great guns.

The Luger is sure neeeeat and great fun on the range, but not the best for serious social occasions. That said, I wouldn't want to look at the wrong end of one in a fight--but I wouldn't want to take mine to a fight either (given a choice).

[wterrell]

Colt is now only a commemorative producing firm. Any Colt .45's that it makes are in the same class as the Army 1860's.

[Doubs]

Until Clinton stopped importation of arms from China, Norinco was making an excellent copy of the Government 1911A1. The 1911A1 model is being made in the Philippines and Brazil today and it has to be the most copied handgun ever made with the possible exception of the Colt black powder pistols. It can be loose as a goose for combat or as tuned as the best thoroughbred for target or competition shooting. A very good friend of mine used to turn out "working" .45's for police officers..... as reliable as the sun coming up and as accurate as a target pistol.

I love the Luger. The balance and feel of the Luger is simply perfection and with a six inch slender barrel it just plain oozes sex appeal. In .30 caliber it can be very reliable and accurate.

BUT, when I think my life may be on the line, I'll have my 1927 Argentine Colt in hand. My heart is with the Luger but my head tells me that the 1911 is a better pistol for serious business.

[Roadkill]

A Luger, any origonal Luger, is an antique. An origonal 1911 or 1911A1 is an antique. Treat them as such. Unless its a 1911 type modern gun which is not an antique, most professionals whose life may depend on it carry neither. Both had their time, both have their history, and neither are in use by any modern military or police force. Both my 1911A1 and Luger function quite well for punching holes in targets at closer and closer distances.

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

RK

[wterrell]

Sorry, Roadkill, I got carried away replying to comments that I consider "Luger bashing". My wife may be on the homely side, but I'll be dipped if I will be told as much.