C96 Persian Contract

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 09:27 PM

Like to get your opinions regarding this C96 .. thank you in advance.

~Darius

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 09:30 PM

some additional pictures

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 09:32 PM

few others...

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 09:35 PM

is it easier to take it apart or to put it all back together

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 09:38 PM

I would love to be able to take pictures like these

alvin · 11-30-2013, 09:41 PM

Reblued. No doubt.

The base before reblue was not very horrible.

====

Be honest, I could not understand why people reblued this thing. Say, it came in low condition, he/she accepted that, big deal? after all, that's just a thin layer of Fe3O4 for visual appearance, not worth the cost, the logic is at least self-contained. Accepted, then, spend more $$ to refurbish it,,,,, still cares that Fe3O4? Conflict in logic. Correct behavior is supposed to be (well, in my view): it is what it is, and feel proud of it, no change.

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 10:05 PM

perhaps re-blued for looks or to last another 100+ years

here's description:

Quote:

Excellent as professionally restored. Restored finish is at about 99% with light sharp edge wear in places. Action is tight and crisp, bore is bright with sharp rifling. Some handling dents and gouges on the grip panels. All numbered parts are matching.

alvin · 11-30-2013, 10:16 PM

OK. I will put my non-technical stuffs aside, just talk this "professionally restored". The work was not very professional: The overall color tone is wrong. The trigger finish is wrong. The halo on "sunrise" is gone. The hammer was poorly sand blasted. After 100+ years, it's "old reblued".

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 10:26 PM

Alvin what would an untouched example be worth? what price would you put on this one?

alvin · 11-30-2013, 10:41 PM

The latest reference sales.... Ralph M sold two instances in March. I inspected both in hands. Both are 80% with good bore. One came to me and cost me about $5k. Another one sold probably $4k. I could have been a little bit more flexible if I had registered both (but I only registered one, that's a mistake). Unexpectedly, someone competed the price up. On brighter side, my muzzle crown is good, the muzzle on the other one is marred. But that alone does not really justify the price delta. I have to agree that the other one got better deal. The two are comparable in general.

If those go $4k, $5k, then this one, ,,,,, , you know, people playing guns have their ranges regardless of gun types. But I noticed players of C96s and Lugers usually have tolerance of $1k or $2k -- if someone can pay $3k for this one, why not wait next one for $4k.... this is a "4x" gun (four times price of a standard C96 in similar condition), there should be other good samples showing up in future.

Here is the one.

Maestro · 11-30-2013, 11:18 PM

You're right. Thanks Alvin.

Maestro · 12-01-2013, 03:18 AM

here's one in 95% condition

Maestro · 12-01-2013, 03:21 AM

Here's an example of a very run down 1910 Mauser Broomhandle Persian Contract Pistol, likely candidate for restoration

Maestro · 12-01-2013, 03:34 AM

..and one in 80% condition

Maestro · 12-01-2013, 03:41 AM

For those interested in further reading:

Quote:

The first article about the C96 Persian contract will be available in USA in April: Gun & Sword Collector magazine - Volume 34, #3.

In Italy is available since the beginning of March (Armi & Tiro) and in Germany will be available in May (RWM Depesche).

The Paul Mauser Archive web site contains one more gallery focused on weapons, for now only with C96 but will be populated with more guns in accordance to the status of the researches.

http://www.paul-mauser-archive.com/c96%20gallery.htm

Please note the important amount of rare documents.

and a new menu related to magazines and articles where you can find information about the status of the articles (researches) and the publication schedule.

http://www.paul-mauser-archive.com/articles.htm

http://www.paul-mauser-archive.com/a...20overview.htm

I hope you find this interesting.

Cheers,
Mauro & Gerben
03-11-2012, 07:39 AM

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-Archive/page2

alvin · 12-01-2013, 06:12 AM

The picture is too dark to evaluate. But one thing for sure, the grip panels were either modified or reproduced. I saw this gun somewhere, but I forgot where. Texas dealer?

Mauro and Vlim's article is great. There are many things that collectors cannot summarize out accurately through sample observation no matter how many instances that they have seen. Only original document can describe those accurately. So, that's invaluable.

But production volume article does not replace individual sample observation either. For collector searching for Persian, pay special attention on the "sunrise" stamp. If the stamp does not halo, it's reblued, period. Of course, C96 is not special, it's same group of professionals working on other C&Rs working on C96, be aware the common tricks. Not saying reblued guns are absolutely not acceptable, but knowing the state.

In C96 world, rarity 1x and 1.5x can be rated as "common"; rarity 2x and 2.5x can be rated as "scarce"; rarity 3x, 3.5x, and 4x can be rated as "rare" (so Persian is rare). Above 4x, "very rare" (if not very rare, at least very expensive). For 4x and above variations, lower shape and nicely done reblue might be acceptable... but that's up to individual. Below 3x, many original instances (or, mostly original but with minor modification instances) exist in various kinds of shapes. Persian is on the boundary, or above. This is a very personal view. Amazingly, for a gun with only 1100 production volume, it's only 4x. Its production volume was only about 0.3% of standard C96 (i.e. C96/M1912, s/n from 120K to 430K). We can see the non-linear nature of C&R.
-----

[Edit] Just realized one thing -- no books address those?? This is forum only. No wonder we see collector books in mint condition collected lots of dust listed for sale

alvin · 12-01-2013, 08:58 AM

Just reinstalled a free image processing software on my PC and en-lighted the picture a little bit. Man, this thing does not look right. Not only the "sunrise" halo's not there (at least, I did not see it even enlarged), the surface does not look right either -- the section has blue near the crest area being very reflective. If that's not caused by gun oil applied on surface, I would say this thing was reblued too. Combined with this funny grip, it's hard to make other conclusion.

alvin · 12-01-2013, 09:10 AM

And.... The state of pre98.com instance is very obvious. No need to comment.

But one thing interesting, "Gun Collector" article mentioned 600 guns were delivered to Persian, and 500 guns stayed in Germany.

Were those reblued Persians most like from Persia, or "liberated" from Germany?, or mixed too? I have seen a RFV marked one, it's reblued too.

Maestro · 12-01-2013, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Just reinstalled a free image processing software on my PC and en-lighted the picture a little bit. Man, this thing does not look right. Not only the "sunrise" halo's not there (at least, I did not see it even enlarged), the surface does not look right either -- the section has blue near the crest area being very reflective. If that's not caused by gun oil applied on surface, I would say this thing was reblued too. Combined with this funny grip, it's hard to make other conclusion.

that's a really cool program you have on your PC

& you have a great memory

I had to look it up again, but it is offered by a fellow in Texas:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Mau...n_id=100302678

Alvin, do you happen to have a good picture of the "sunrise" halo? so I can compare with.

alvin · 12-01-2013, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maestro

that's a really cool program you have on your PC

Free one. Downloadable from here:

http://picasa.google.com/

I found it's very useful to enlight dark pictures and enlarge small pictures.

For the "sunrise" stamp, here it is. Unlike the "lion" crest, this "sunrise" stamp was applied after the gun had been blued. Please note the unevenness of the stamp's edge and the halo.

And, as a small subset of prewar M1912 production, the finish of this variation is same with other ones in the period. Not rough, but not reflective either.

11-30-2013, 09:27 PM	#1
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	C96 Persian Contract Like to get your opinions regarding this C96 .. thank you in advance. ~Darius Attached Thumbnails

11-30-2013, 09:30 PM	#2
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	some additional pictures Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

11-30-2013, 09:35 PM	#4
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	is it easier to take it apart or to put it all back together Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

11-30-2013, 09:38 PM	#5
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	I would love to be able to take pictures like these Attached Thumbnails

11-30-2013, 10:41 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The latest reference sales.... Ralph M sold two instances in March. I inspected both in hands. Both are 80% with good bore. One came to me and cost me about $5k. Another one sold probably $4k. I could have been a little bit more flexible if I had registered both (but I only registered one, that's a mistake). Unexpectedly, someone competed the price up. On brighter side, my muzzle crown is good, the muzzle on the other one is marred. But that alone does not really justify the price delta. I have to agree that the other one got better deal. The two are comparable in general. If those go $4k, $5k, then this one, ,,,,, , you know, people playing guns have their ranges regardless of gun types. But I noticed players of C96s and Lugers usually have tolerance of $1k or $2k -- if someone can pay $3k for this one, why not wait next one for $4k.... this is a "4x" gun (four times price of a standard C96 in similar condition), there should be other good samples showing up in future. Here is the one. Attached Thumbnails

11-30-2013, 09:32 PM	#3
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	few others... Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

11-30-2013, 09:41 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Reblued. No doubt. The base before reblue was not very horrible. ==== Be honest, I could not understand why people reblued this thing. Say, it came in low condition, he/she accepted that, big deal? after all, that's just a thin layer of Fe3O4 for visual appearance, not worth the cost, the logic is at least self-contained. Accepted, then, spend more $$ to refurbish it,,,,, still cares that Fe3O4? Conflict in logic. Correct behavior is supposed to be (well, in my view): it is what it is, and feel proud of it, no change.

11-30-2013, 10:16 PM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	OK. I will put my non-technical stuffs aside, just talk this "professionally restored". The work was not very professional: The overall color tone is wrong. The trigger finish is wrong. The halo on "sunrise" is gone. The hammer was poorly sand blasted. After 100+ years, it's "old reblued".

11-30-2013, 10:26 PM	#9
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	Alvin what would an untouched example be worth? what price would you put on this one?

11-30-2013, 11:18 PM	#11
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	You're right. Thanks Alvin.

12-01-2013, 03:18 AM	#12
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	here's one in 95% condition Attached Thumbnails

12-01-2013, 03:21 AM	#13
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	Here's an example of a very run down 1910 Mauser Broomhandle Persian Contract Pistol, likely candidate for restoration Attached Thumbnails

12-01-2013, 03:34 AM	#14
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	..and one in 80% condition Attached Thumbnails

12-01-2013, 06:12 AM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The picture is too dark to evaluate. But one thing for sure, the grip panels were either modified or reproduced. I saw this gun somewhere, but I forgot where. Texas dealer? Mauro and Vlim's article is great. There are many things that collectors cannot summarize out accurately through sample observation no matter how many instances that they have seen. Only original document can describe those accurately. So, that's invaluable. But production volume article does not replace individual sample observation either. For collector searching for Persian, pay special attention on the "sunrise" stamp. If the stamp does not halo, it's reblued, period. Of course, C96 is not special, it's same group of professionals working on other C&Rs working on C96, be aware the common tricks. Not saying reblued guns are absolutely not acceptable, but knowing the state. In C96 world, rarity 1x and 1.5x can be rated as "common"; rarity 2x and 2.5x can be rated as "scarce"; rarity 3x, 3.5x, and 4x can be rated as "rare" (so Persian is rare). Above 4x, "very rare" (if not very rare, at least very expensive). For 4x and above variations, lower shape and nicely done reblue might be acceptable... but that's up to individual. Below 3x, many original instances (or, mostly original but with minor modification instances) exist in various kinds of shapes. Persian is on the boundary, or above. This is a very personal view. Amazingly, for a gun with only 1100 production volume, it's only 4x. Its production volume was only about 0.3% of standard C96 (i.e. C96/M1912, s/n from 120K to 430K). We can see the non-linear nature of C&R. ----- [Edit] Just realized one thing -- no books address those?? This is forum only. No wonder we see collector books in mint condition collected lots of dust listed for sale Last edited by alvin; 12-01-2013 at 07:25 AM.

12-01-2013, 08:58 AM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Just reinstalled a free image processing software on my PC and en-lighted the picture a little bit. Man, this thing does not look right. Not only the "sunrise" halo's not there (at least, I did not see it even enlarged), the surface does not look right either -- the section has blue near the crest area being very reflective. If that's not caused by gun oil applied on surface, I would say this thing was reblued too. Combined with this funny grip, it's hard to make other conclusion. Attached Thumbnails

12-01-2013, 09:10 AM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	And.... The state of pre98.com instance is very obvious. No need to comment. But one thing interesting, "Gun Collector" article mentioned 600 guns were delivered to Persian, and 500 guns stayed in Germany. Were those reblued Persians most like from Persia, or "liberated" from Germany?, or mixed too? I have seen a RFV marked one, it's reblued too.