Reichswehr 1920 property stamped Polizei Luger Opinions - Page 2

Maestro · 11-10-2013, 12:47 PM

numbers matching

Maestro · 11-10-2013, 09:47 PM

some more pictures i obtained

Don M · 11-11-2013, 02:42 PM

The 1920 stamp was also used to identify police property and does not indicate the pistol belonged to the Army after WWI.

klaus 3338 · 11-12-2013, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

The 1920 stamp was also used to identify police property and does not indicate the pistol belonged to the Army after WWI.

That may be but I do not think so because the 1920 stamp was published only in the "Heeres- Verordnungsblatt" and not in the "Ministerial- Blatt für die Preußische innere Verwaltung".
We can read there only about weapons of the Reichswehr (Army and not the Police).
I do not know why Police Lugers should have had a 1920 stamp at that time- they should/ may have had unit/ Police stamps.
There are many more historical reasons that Police Lugers in 1920 do not got the 1920 stamp- allone my poor English does not allow to discuss them.

sheepherder · 11-12-2013, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maestro

The pistol was arsenal re-finished/re-worked in 1920 where the barrel was shortened to its current length.

What leads you to think the barrel was 'shortened'??? It has the correct taper for a 100mm barrel. The receiver does have the arty notch but that does not mean the barrel was shortened...

Can you see silver solder under the front sight band???

Don M · 11-12-2013, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaus 3338

That may be but I do not think so because the 1920 stamp was published only in the "Heeres- Verordnungsblatt" and not in the "Ministerial- Blatt für die Preußische innere Verwaltung".
We can read there only about weapons of the Reichswehr (Army and not the Police).
I do not know why Police Lugers should have had a 1920 stamp at that time- they should/ may have had unit/ Police stamps.
There are many more historical reasons that Police Lugers in 1920 do not got the 1920 stamp- allone my poor English does not allow to discuss them.

Klaus, please see this thread (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...property-stamp) and page 855 of the new Görtz & Sturgess book (Simpson edition). The order from the Preußische Minister des Innern was issued on 4 September 1920.

Maestro · 11-12-2013, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

Klaus, please see this thread (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...property-stamp) and page 855 of the new Görtz & Sturgess book (Simpson edition). The order from the Preußische Minister des Innern was issued on 4 September 1920.

I'll put a part of the thread here for completeness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

Police application of 1920 property stamp

In another thread on this site, I responded to a question from Jan Still about evidence that the German police, as well as the Reichswehr, were instructed to apply the 1920 property stamp. Since this reply was buried in a thread on Browning 1900s, I thought I would repeat it here for the benefit of those who look primarily at Luger postings.

Many references including Jan's Weimar Lugers and Görtz's Die Pistole 08 include the 1 August 1920 directive of the Reichswehrministerium (Ministry of War) instructing the Reichswehr to apply the 1920 property stamp to identify its weapons. Based on this document, most collectors have assumed that only the Reichswehr applied this stamp and the existence of the stamp implies Reichswehr ownership at that time. However, there is considerable evidence that similar directives were issued to state police authorities. Attached is a photocopy of an instruction issued to the State Security Police of Saxony detailing the location of the 1920 property stamp on their weapons. The illustrations are identical to those in Still's and Görtz's books from the Reichswehr document. The Saxon document was discovered by members of the German Police History Society in the state archive in Dresden and shared with me by Horst Friedrich. Although the copy is poor and a strip is missing from the middle, the first two lines of the heading appear to read, “Stempelvorschrift für Handwaffen und M.G. der L. S. Pol. aus Anlage der allgemeinen Entwaffnung der Bevölkerung.” This translates as “Stamping Instructions for hand weapons and machine guns of the State Security Police from the illustrations of the General Disarmament of the Population.” This rather clearly indicates that the Saxon police were also instructed to apply the 1920 property stamp.

Evidence that the Prussian state police received similar instructions is found on Browning M1900s and Dreyse M1907s with Imperial-era Prussian police markings and 1920 property stamps. A number of these also have Weimar-era police markings. It is inconceivable that these weapons would have been transferred from the police to the military for stamping and then immediately back to the police.

While it is a bit of an extrapolation, I believe also that the majority of the police P08s and C96s with 1920 property stamps were already in the possession of the police at the time the stamp was applied.

Maestro · 11-12-2013, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

What leads you to think the barrel was 'shortened'??? It has the correct taper for a 100mm barrel. The receiver does have the arty notch but that does not mean the barrel was shortened...

Can you see silver solder under the front sight band???

very interesting; at this point, it's only an assumption that it was "shortened"; I will have the pistol in possession by next week and see.. in the meantime I'll see if the owner can answer this question.

alanint · 11-12-2013, 07:21 PM

If this had been an artillery, the barrel would have had to be replaced, not shortened to have the profile it has today. The gun's rear toggle would also have no sight notch.

I don't think the seller is very clear on this point.

Tony Min · 11-12-2013, 07:42 PM

Didn't many Erfurts have the notch?

alanint · 11-12-2013, 09:39 PM

ALL Erfurts had the notch.

wlyon · 11-12-2013, 10:16 PM

If we are talking about the front (Artillery cut) in the receiver, this appeared in 1916. Bill

Geo99 · 11-13-2013, 01:25 AM

Ed,

After looking at the newer pictures that were posted, I would say only the toggle parts have been reblued. I see what looks like fresh blue in worn areas on the toggle. The back of the side plate looks original with white parts, but that is one of the worst looking 1917 chamber date stamps I've seen in awhile - it's shallow and looks buffed out, but is still blue?

The finish difficult to evaluate from these pictures, but in any case, it's still just a 75% original gun.

I hope the new owner really likes it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Geo, I would want to see more before I would declare it reblued after the police.

Maestro · 11-16-2013, 07:19 PM

Assuming that this was a Artillery Luger that was shortened, would this be an appropriate holster?

wlyon · 11-17-2013, 12:46 AM

It sure was an artillery but the toe closure looks very poorly done. My guess is it was cut down by some owner after the War. It is not the work expected by German saddlers. There are many good Police holsters on the market. Bill

Don M · 11-17-2013, 05:34 PM

I doubt that any effort was made by the German police to match a reworked LP08 with a reworked LP08 holster. These would have gone through completely independent processes. A 1917 Erfurt could just as likely have been matched with a converted military P08 holster. And, as Bill says, there are many nicer reworked LP08 holsters on the market.

Maestro · 11-17-2013, 06:06 PM

i guess i was looking at it more in terms of the history the holster is telling just by looking at it, versus a perfect holster that would not convey the same message.

Simpson LTD had about 4 of these that are mostly missing certain things, or have tears, etc for about $150 each. This one is about $130 (no tears, nothing seems to be missing).

klaus 3338 · 11-22-2013, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

Klaus, please see this thread (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...property-stamp) and page 855 of the new Görtz & Sturgess book (Simpson edition). The order from the Preußische Minister des Innern was issued on 4 September 1920.

Very interesting Don- thanks for sharing.
Can you tell me the meaning of L.S.Pol. please.
Regards
Klaus

Don M · 11-22-2013, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaus 3338

Very interesting Don- thanks for sharing.
Can you tell me the meaning of L.S.Pol. please.
Regards
Klaus

S.L.Pol. = Sächsische Landessicherheits-Polizei. This was the short-lived equivalent of the Prussian Sicherheitspolizei formed after WWI. Another document from the Dresden Archive confirms this identification. The document is reproduced on p. 213 of HWIS.

klaus 3338 · 11-23-2013, 02:39 AM

That is what I thought... there were several "Police units" shortly after the Great War which have had more military character than Police and were disbanded by the IMKK like the PwB and all the others (in German we would say: Nicht bei allem wo Polizei draufstand war auch Polizei drin). That is a part of my first objection to the 1920 stamp on "Police" Lugers.
There is a good book about this time and the problems of the Germans with the IMKK. I got it from the late Joachim Goertz and it was basic for several discussions. I always see the Luger history with the time history and hope my poor English can be understand.
Don thanks for the reply and best regards from Germany
Klaus

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11-10-2013, 12:47 PM	#21
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	numbers matching Attached Thumbnails

11-10-2013, 09:47 PM	#22
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	some more pictures i obtained Attached Thumbnails

11-11-2013, 02:42 PM	#23
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	The 1920 stamp was also used to identify police property and does not indicate the pistol belonged to the Army after WWI. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

11-12-2013, 10:16 PM	#32
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,523 Times in 940 Posts	If we are talking about the front (Artillery cut) in the receiver, this appeared in 1916. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-12-2013, 07:21 PM	#29
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	If this had been an artillery, the barrel would have had to be replaced, not shortened to have the profile it has today. The gun's rear toggle would also have no sight notch. I don't think the seller is very clear on this point.

11-12-2013, 07:42 PM	#30
Tony Min User Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 169 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts	Didn't many Erfurts have the notch?

11-12-2013, 09:39 PM	#31
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	ALL Erfurts had the notch.

11-16-2013, 07:19 PM	#34
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	1915 Luger Artillery Holster Converted to Military Standard Luger Assuming that this was a Artillery Luger that was shortened, would this be an appropriate holster? Attached Thumbnails

11-17-2013, 12:46 AM	#35
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,523 Times in 940 Posts	It sure was an artillery but the toe closure looks very poorly done. My guess is it was cut down by some owner after the War. It is not the work expected by German saddlers. There are many good Police holsters on the market. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-17-2013, 05:34 PM	#36
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I doubt that any effort was made by the German police to match a reworked LP08 with a reworked LP08 holster. These would have gone through completely independent processes. A 1917 Erfurt could just as likely have been matched with a converted military P08 holster. And, as Bill says, there are many nicer reworked LP08 holsters on the market. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

11-17-2013, 06:06 PM	#37
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	i guess i was looking at it more in terms of the history the holster is telling just by looking at it, versus a perfect holster that would not convey the same message. Simpson LTD had about 4 of these that are mostly missing certain things, or have tears, etc for about $150 each. This one is about $130 (no tears, nothing seems to be missing).

11-23-2013, 02:39 AM	#40
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 513 Thanks: 0 Thanked 395 Times in 156 Posts	That is what I thought... there were several "Police units" shortly after the Great War which have had more military character than Police and were disbanded by the IMKK like the PwB and all the others (in German we would say: Nicht bei allem wo Polizei draufstand war auch Polizei drin). That is a part of my first objection to the 1920 stamp on "Police" Lugers. There is a good book about this time and the problems of the Germans with the IMKK. I got it from the late Joachim Goertz and it was basic for several discussions. I always see the Luger history with the time history and hope my poor English can be understand. Don thanks for the reply and best regards from Germany Klaus