1893 Loewe Borchardt - Page 4

alvin · 02-14-2008, 08:52 AM

I made a mistake. The original 1893 patent did not have the lanyard ring on the side. However, the 1896 patent did have two lanyard rings.

A.Mifsin · 02-14-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by alvin
I made a mistake. The original 1893 patent did not have the lanyard ring on the side. However, the 1896 patent did have two lanyard rings.

Any idea why two lanyard rings

Alf

Big Norm · 02-15-2008, 01:31 AM

John Sabato,
if Stars Borchardt never had a stock lug on it, I would NEVER suggest that someone try to put one on. Until someone of Ron Woods qualifications inspected it and decided one way or another, I would just leave it alone. There just might be something historically unique about her gun. I don't know where Star is from, but I sure would like Ron Wood to, physically, look it over.

Ron Wood,
Have you physically seen the #19 Borchardt that Juliaauction is selling? Your explaination sounds logical given the current amount of counterfeiting going on within the Luger ranks. But I just can't understand why someone would do it to this particular gun. Its expensive enough as is. I'm not challenging, just stunned. The pictures in the auction just are not good enough to see if the gun has been altered.

Maybe gun #27, mentioned in Walters book, might shed some further light. Walters book shows some pictures of that pistol. Unfortuately, the pictures do not address the current discussion. The pictures were taken by Colonel W. Reid Betz, John M. Browning Museum. Does this pistol now reside in that museum? Where is that museum?

Great discussion everyone.
Big Norm

Mauser720 · 02-15-2008, 09:01 AM

Big Norm -

Well, a google search shows that the John M. Browning Museum is in Ogden, Utah.

Mauser720 - Ron

alvin · 02-15-2008, 09:03 AM

I feel comparing with #27 is a great suggestion. I bet the Museum is in Utah.

According to Walter, #27 has stock lug and Loewe text over the chamber. By pictures posted by Star and www.borchardtland.com, the triggers have full s/n. Probably many small parts are fully numbered as well. If that's true, changing numbers on so many parts to 19..... of course, not a problem for a professional and the auction price pays for the work.

Ron mentioned pre-production, early and late models. There is one thing unclear to me -- What's the supposed shape of #19? Since #27 does not match the 1893 patent drawing (because of the stock lug), #19 might not match either.

tenbears · 02-16-2008, 08:49 PM

Here is a Loewe over the chamber with a stock lug. This rig is for sale.

tenbears · 02-16-2008, 08:51 PM

Close up of stock lug.

Ron Wood · 02-16-2008, 11:34 PM

Alvin,

I probably should just let this thread go, but I am a glutton for punishment. Number 19 in the auction is a late production Loewe as I have stated before. Number 27 is the earliest known production Loewe (immediately following the pre-production series, which ended with #25) and is pictured in the October 1993 issue of Deutsches Waffen-Journal. Forget about the patent drawings, they are just drawings and unless you have the text to go with them, you will have no idea whether what is in the drawing has anything to do with actual production. They are stock drawings that are modified to illustrate the particular item for which the patent applies. For instance, the 1896 patent is for a stepped follower on the magazine that was supposed to act as a hold open. The fact that Walter used it to illustrate the double spring magazine has nothing to do with the double spring. Borchardts were never fabricated with two lanyard attachments. It only existed in the patent drawing.

In reviewing my records, I did find one more Borchardt, # 8, that is recorded as having no stock lug, but I do not have any additional information whether it was made that way or if it was removed. To the best of my knowledge, and that of others more knowledgeable than me, Borchardts were made with a stock lug from the get-go.

The "supposed shape" of #19 would be like every other Loewe Borchardt, stock lug and all. But a "real" #19 would not have the sear bar that is shown on the auction Borchardt, it would not be marked on the right side of the receiver "System Borchardt Patent", it would not be proofed, and the sear spring would be secured by a small screw and not in a groove in the receiver.

Least I have not made myself clear, let me state again THE BORCHARDT #19 IN THE JULIA AUCTION IS A LATE PRODUCTION PIECE AND COULD NOT HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER 19. You guys trying to come up with justification for it being legitimate is precisely why it was boosted. There is historical reference to #19, so that is most likely why someone decided to use that serial number to renumber this otherwise beautiful gun. Not content with having a potential $25-30K sale, they were hoping that the uninformed buyer would swallow the possibility of it being a very early piece with historical provenance and cough up an additional $10-15K for the rarity.

Yes, it has been masterfully re-done, but either the "mechanic" was unaware of the differences in pre-, early- and late production Loewes and figured a "Loewe is a Loewe", or he figured a potential buyer wouldn't know the difference and swallow it hook, line and sinker.

wlyon · 02-17-2008, 12:03 AM

Ron. Very well written as usual. Bill

Ron Wood · 02-17-2008, 06:11 AM

Dow,
That is a good looking rig. Who has it for sale?

alvin · 02-17-2008, 08:02 AM

Ron, thank you very much for the analysis & explaination. Through my short experience with old guns, C&R study is nothing but details. I appreciate it.

laoshi75 · 03-14-2008, 09:35 PM

Reading once again this thread, I am thinking that there are here on this forum some (many ?) very first class collectors and historians. I am really impressed by the knowledge of some of you, Gentle-men (and -Woman..). It is one of the great pleasures and advantages of being member of this forum. Congratulations to you !

alvin · 03-16-2008, 08:18 PM

laoshi -- If you read their profiles.... Ron Wood has collected guns for over 50 years, and Tom A, I have not figured out yet, hint is he searched Borchie near 50 years in the past. We are talking about half a century..... It's a privilege to post asking them questions.

alvin · 03-24-2008, 01:16 AM

A Loewe Borchart in Beijing Military Museum. Enjoy.

=======

P.S. -- By reviewing those pictures, I am not sure.... halo on chamber marking??

Ron Wood · 03-24-2008, 01:25 AM

Alvin,

Thank you for the link to the Beijing Military Museum Borchardt. It is obviously a Loewe piece. Is there any indication of the serial number?

alvin · 03-24-2008, 01:33 AM

Ron -- The lighting is poor, and it's locked in a glass cabinet. I will carry a telescope with me to visit again to find the s/n..... in a few days. Will also try to take clearer pictures.

Navy · 03-24-2008, 09:33 AM

Would be interested in what the placard information says about it.

Tom A

Vlim · 03-24-2008, 09:48 AM

A word about the Loewe/DWM 'transition':

DWM, or Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken A.G., was set up in 1897 by Ludw. Loewe & Cie. Loewe had purchased the Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik in Karlsruhe and decided to group it's military production into one company, so they founded DWM, with locations in Karlsruhe (former DM) and Berlin (the Loewe arms production part).

Nothing much changed for the Berlin based Loewe weapons branch and staff, just a new name on the stationary and the outside wall, that's all.

So there's nothing weird or mysterious about Georg Luger walking around with a Loewe marked C/93 in those days.

alvin · 03-24-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom A
Would be interested in what the placard information says about it.

The placard says "Borchardt Automatic Pistol (Germany Made)". There are tons of Broomhandles, 1911s, HP35s, Nambus, S&W revolvers, etc in the Museum, but only a single Borchardt. Interesting enough, there are also four Lugers: a 1920 commercial, a DWM Army 9, an Artillery, and a ?? (I cannot remember), all 4 Lugers are in 10% shape.

alvin · 03-28-2008, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Wood
Is there any indication of the serial number?

S/N is 905.

I did my best, even spent $12 to get a 10x binocular. People must feel funny seeing a guy standing 3-4 feet away from the gun and watching it with a binocular. Unfortunately, it did not help at all. I could not focus the lens. I took 200 pictures, the following three are the best quality ones that I could create.

The same camera did a little better this time. s/n is 905. The middle 0 is unclear from the first picture, but it's visible on the trigger.

Two more pictures showing the BUG on barrel, and BU on receiver. For some reason, the camera did not catch C/G clearly, but it's there.

========

Two more pictures... same thing, but might be better (??)

02-15-2008, 09:01 AM	#64
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Big Norm - Well, a google search shows that the John M. Browning Museum is in Ogden, Utah. Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

02-16-2008, 08:49 PM	#66
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	Here is a Loewe over the chamber with a stock lug. This rig is for sale. Attached Thumbnails

02-16-2008, 08:51 PM	#67
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	Close up of stock lug. Attached Thumbnails

02-16-2008, 11:34 PM	#68
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Alvin, I probably should just let this thread go, but I am a glutton for punishment. Number 19 in the auction is a late production Loewe as I have stated before. Number 27 is the earliest known production Loewe (immediately following the pre-production series, which ended with #25) and is pictured in the October 1993 issue of Deutsches Waffen-Journal. Forget about the patent drawings, they are just drawings and unless you have the text to go with them, you will have no idea whether what is in the drawing has anything to do with actual production. They are stock drawings that are modified to illustrate the particular item for which the patent applies. For instance, the 1896 patent is for a stepped follower on the magazine that was supposed to act as a hold open. The fact that Walter used it to illustrate the double spring magazine has nothing to do with the double spring. Borchardts were never fabricated with two lanyard attachments. It only existed in the patent drawing. In reviewing my records, I did find one more Borchardt, # 8, that is recorded as having no stock lug, but I do not have any additional information whether it was made that way or if it was removed. To the best of my knowledge, and that of others more knowledgeable than me, Borchardts were made with a stock lug from the get-go. The "supposed shape" of #19 would be like every other Loewe Borchardt, stock lug and all. But a "real" #19 would not have the sear bar that is shown on the auction Borchardt, it would not be marked on the right side of the receiver "System Borchardt Patent", it would not be proofed, and the sear spring would be secured by a small screw and not in a groove in the receiver. Least I have not made myself clear, let me state again THE BORCHARDT #19 IN THE JULIA AUCTION IS A LATE PRODUCTION PIECE AND COULD NOT HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER 19. You guys trying to come up with justification for it being legitimate is precisely why it was boosted. There is historical reference to #19, so that is most likely why someone decided to use that serial number to renumber this otherwise beautiful gun. Not content with having a potential $25-30K sale, they were hoping that the uninformed buyer would swallow the possibility of it being a very early piece with historical provenance and cough up an additional $10-15K for the rarity. Yes, it has been masterfully re-done, but either the "mechanic" was unaware of the differences in pre-, early- and late production Loewes and figured a "Loewe is a Loewe", or he figured a potential buyer wouldn't know the difference and swallow it hook, line and sinker. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-17-2008, 12:03 AM	#69
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Ron. Very well written as usual. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

02-14-2008, 08:52 AM	#61
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I made a mistake. The original 1893 patent did not have the lanyard ring on the side. However, the 1896 patent did have two lanyard rings.

02-15-2008, 01:31 AM	#63
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John Sabato, if Stars Borchardt never had a stock lug on it, I would NEVER suggest that someone try to put one on. Until someone of Ron Woods qualifications inspected it and decided one way or another, I would just leave it alone. There just might be something historically unique about her gun. I don't know where Star is from, but I sure would like Ron Wood to, physically, look it over. Ron Wood, Have you physically seen the #19 Borchardt that Juliaauction is selling? Your explaination sounds logical given the current amount of counterfeiting going on within the Luger ranks. But I just can't understand why someone would do it to this particular gun. Its expensive enough as is. I'm not challenging, just stunned. The pictures in the auction just are not good enough to see if the gun has been altered. Maybe gun #27, mentioned in Walters book, might shed some further light. Walters book shows some pictures of that pistol. Unfortuately, the pictures do not address the current discussion. The pictures were taken by Colonel W. Reid Betz, John M. Browning Museum. Does this pistol now reside in that museum? Where is that museum? Great discussion everyone. Big Norm

02-15-2008, 09:03 AM	#65
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I feel comparing with #27 is a great suggestion. I bet the Museum is in Utah. According to Walter, #27 has stock lug and Loewe text over the chamber. By pictures posted by Star and www.borchardtland.com, the triggers have full s/n. Probably many small parts are fully numbered as well. If that's true, changing numbers on so many parts to 19..... of course, not a problem for a professional and the auction price pays for the work. Ron mentioned pre-production, early and late models. There is one thing unclear to me -- What's the supposed shape of #19? Since #27 does not match the 1893 patent drawing (because of the stock lug), #19 might not match either.

02-17-2008, 06:11 AM	#70
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Dow, That is a good looking rig. Who has it for sale? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-17-2008, 08:02 AM	#71
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Ron, thank you very much for the analysis & explaination. Through my short experience with old guns, C&R study is nothing but details. I appreciate it.

03-14-2008, 09:35 PM	#72
laoshi75 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand/France Posts: 490 Thanks: 288 Thanked 96 Times in 41 Posts	Reading once again this thread, I am thinking that there are here on this forum some (many ?) very first class collectors and historians. I am really impressed by the knowledge of some of you, Gentle-men (and -Woman..). It is one of the great pleasures and advantages of being member of this forum. Congratulations to you !

03-16-2008, 08:18 PM	#73
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	laoshi -- If you read their profiles.... Ron Wood has collected guns for over 50 years, and Tom A, I have not figured out yet, hint is he searched Borchie near 50 years in the past. We are talking about half a century..... It's a privilege to post asking them questions.

03-24-2008, 01:16 AM	#74
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	A Loewe Borchart in Beijing Military Museum. Enjoy. ======= P.S. -- By reviewing those pictures, I am not sure.... halo on chamber marking??

03-24-2008, 01:25 AM	#75
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Alvin, Thank you for the link to the Beijing Military Museum Borchardt. It is obviously a Loewe piece. Is there any indication of the serial number? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-24-2008, 01:33 AM	#76
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Ron -- The lighting is poor, and it's locked in a glass cabinet. I will carry a telescope with me to visit again to find the s/n..... in a few days. Will also try to take clearer pictures.

03-24-2008, 09:33 AM	#77
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Would be interested in what the placard information says about it. Tom A

03-24-2008, 09:48 AM	#78
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	A word about the Loewe/DWM 'transition': DWM, or Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken A.G., was set up in 1897 by Ludw. Loewe & Cie. Loewe had purchased the Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik in Karlsruhe and decided to group it's military production into one company, so they founded DWM, with locations in Karlsruhe (former DM) and Berlin (the Loewe arms production part). Nothing much changed for the Berlin based Loewe weapons branch and staff, just a new name on the stationary and the outside wall, that's all. So there's nothing weird or mysterious about Georg Luger walking around with a Loewe marked C/93 in those days.