"Out of Range Eagles"

burton · 08-26-2007, 05:58 PM

I haven't posted here in quite awhile. Have owned one of the Bannerman guns, for almost 30 years. Become very interested recently, in the anomaly of the out of range Eagles, i.e. No German proof marks, No "Germany" marking etc.

I personally believe that there are to many of them known, to be considered as replacements for pistols that failed inspection. My gut feeling is that there is a unknown military or paramilitary/police? "contract(s)" that they were specifically manufactured for. No way would the Germans let 1,800? Lugers go unproved, unless they were distened for specific military/paramilitary contract(s). They are to through and organized for that.

Here's a link to photos of another one that I have recently found on the net. This gentleman has a very extensive collection of various handguns. Including at least (5) shots of AE 6020. if you manipulate the basic URL I'm posting, you will be able to see all of them.

http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/papkelab/curios/Eagle3.JPG

cirelaw · 09-16-2007, 07:40 AM

Eric, clocking in with serial #6786 with U.S. holster.

Ron Wood · 09-16-2007, 11:15 AM

Dr. Papke has an impressive collection of fine honest looking historical weapons. Thank you for the link. Number 6020 was reported by Dr. Papke on Jan Still's Gunboards forum back in January of this year. It was the first time I was aware of this serial number. It is hard to say how approximately 1000 Lugers in addition to the 1000 US Army procurement made it into the US without the requisite "GERMANY" stamp. Perhaps it was for immediate replacement of damaged/unservicable Test pieces, prepositioned stock for an anticipated follow-on contract US Military order, or ???? We probably will never know.

burton · 09-16-2007, 11:53 AM

Although I have no tangible evidence to substantiate my theory, I believe that their were between 800 & 1000 "out of range" Model 1900's, made by DWM. This was over and above the 1000 made for the U.S. Army. The approximate serial number ranges were between 5,900 & 6,200 and 7,200 to 7,900, for the out of range eagles.

I believe that although these guns had the American Eagle crest on the receiver they were sold to either foreign military or paramilitary organizations outside of the U.S.

The only way at this late date, ( 106 years after the fact ) we would have any clue to which organization(s) they were sold, to is to trace the ownership/provenance of the known out of range eagles as far back as possible.

Pete Ebbink · 09-16-2007, 12:14 PM

More info. about Dr. Papke :

http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/papkelab/index.html

Ron Wood · 09-16-2007, 05:23 PM

Richard,
I think you are pretty much on target regarding the number of Lugers outside of the US Army purchase made by DWM without the GERMANY stamp. The lowest serial number I have recorded is #5978 and the highest is #7990, so you might be a little high on the low end and a little low on the high end (but not much!). Numbers 6167-6196 were incuded in the Bannerman purchase, so the "in-range" sequence started below 6200. There are also a few Model 1900 Lugers around the 8400 range that have been observed without the GERMANY mark. I am very doubtful that any American Eagle Lugers were sold to military or paramilitary organizations outside of the US as the prdominant number of reported examples have been from owners/sources within the US.

I have been tracking these "in-range" and "out-of-range" Lugers for over 30 years. A really fascinating study with still a lot of questions!

08-26-2007, 05:58 PM	#1
burton User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Central AZ Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Out of Range Eagles" I haven't posted here in quite awhile. Have owned one of the Bannerman guns, for almost 30 years. Become very interested recently, in the anomaly of the out of range Eagles, i.e. No German proof marks, No "Germany" marking etc. I personally believe that there are to many of them known, to be considered as replacements for pistols that failed inspection. My gut feeling is that there is a unknown military or paramilitary/police? "contract(s)" that they were specifically manufactured for. No way would the Germans let 1,800? Lugers go unproved, unless they were distened for specific military/paramilitary contract(s). They are to through and organized for that. Here's a link to photos of another one that I have recently found on the net. This gentleman has a very extensive collection of various handguns. Including at least (5) shots of AE 6020. if you manipulate the basic URL I'm posting, you will be able to see all of them. http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/papkelab/curios/Eagle3.JPG __________________ RICHARD

09-16-2007, 11:15 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Dr. Papke has an impressive collection of fine honest looking historical weapons. Thank you for the link. Number 6020 was reported by Dr. Papke on Jan Still's Gunboards forum back in January of this year. It was the first time I was aware of this serial number. It is hard to say how approximately 1000 Lugers in addition to the 1000 US Army procurement made it into the US without the requisite "GERMANY" stamp. Perhaps it was for immediate replacement of damaged/unservicable Test pieces, prepositioned stock for an anticipated follow-on contract US Military order, or ???? We probably will never know. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-16-2007, 11:53 AM	#4
burton User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Central AZ Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Although I have no tangible evidence to substantiate my theory, I believe that their were between 800 & 1000 "out of range" Model 1900's, made by DWM. This was over and above the 1000 made for the U.S. Army. The approximate serial number ranges were between 5,900 & 6,200 and 7,200 to 7,900, for the out of range eagles. I believe that although these guns had the American Eagle crest on the receiver they were sold to either foreign military or paramilitary organizations outside of the U.S. The only way at this late date, ( 106 years after the fact ) we would have any clue to which organization(s) they were sold, to is to trace the ownership/provenance of the known out of range eagles as far back as possible. __________________ RICHARD

09-16-2007, 07:40 AM	#2
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Eric, clocking in with serial #6786 with U.S. holster.

09-16-2007, 12:14 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	More info. about Dr. Papke : http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/papkelab/index.html

09-16-2007, 05:23 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Richard, I think you are pretty much on target regarding the number of Lugers outside of the US Army purchase made by DWM without the GERMANY stamp. The lowest serial number I have recorded is #5978 and the highest is #7990, so you might be a little high on the low end and a little low on the high end (but not much!). Numbers 6167-6196 were incuded in the Bannerman purchase, so the "in-range" sequence started below 6200. There are also a few Model 1900 Lugers around the 8400 range that have been observed without the GERMANY mark. I am very doubtful that any American Eagle Lugers were sold to military or paramilitary organizations outside of the US as the prdominant number of reported examples have been from owners/sources within the US. I have been tracking these "in-range" and "out-of-range" Lugers for over 30 years. A really fascinating study with still a lot of questions! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction