1921 Luger identification

d39brown · 06-23-2013, 01:11 AM

Hello all,
I'm very new to Lugers and had an opportunity to pick up my first 9mm the other day. After my excitement dissipated my curiosity improved. All the lower pieces and barrel are marked 219, the slide is 33.

Can you help me identify what my gun is?

Here are some pictures, please let me know if there is anything you can share...

Darrell

alanint · 06-23-2013, 07:39 AM

Your gun is a Weimar era Luger with a mismatched toggle and aftermarket sideplate. It was built from parts, so it will not be of much interest to a collector, but looks like it would make a good shooter.
The plug on your magazine bottom looks either damaged or perhaps a home made replacement.

rhuff · 06-23-2013, 05:26 PM

Congrats to the addiction called Luger ownership. They are like eating one peanut!! Looks like a good shooter from what I can see. If you do chose to shoot it, first break it down for a good cleaning and inspection, then a good lube. Stick with std. velocity ammo like Winchester White box 115gr FMJ or PMC 115gr FMJ. You might also want to pick up a good aftermarket mag or two, and Mec-Gar make the best ones available......Oh, and welcome to the forum.

lugersrkewl · 06-23-2013, 06:07 PM

Nice find....an early commercial that was routed into army use. Too bad its mismatched but its still a niceun. congrats thanks for sharing

RichSr · 06-23-2013, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Nice find....an early commercial that was routed into army use

I believe this was a military luger all along. I don't see anything that indicates a commercial pistol. Am I missing something?

DavidJayUden · 06-23-2013, 10:34 PM

It certainly bears military markings and numbering pattern. Does it appear that the top has been ground down and the 1921 being a re-stamp? That part puzzles me.
dju

d39brown · 06-24-2013, 01:10 AM

Many thanks to everyone for the great information. Very complex info, you guys are really experts.

I don't think it was ground down, here is a good picture of the top. What makes it a military instead of commercial? There is a small mark on the barrel, I didn't note what it is but it is very faint.

Also I made a mistake, the 219 is on the barrel and lower, the pivot pin and other pieces are marked 19. Except for the 33 the top toggle. I don't understand 219 serial number, it does not appear to have any suffix mark anywhere?

I haven't cleaned or oiled it yet, is there a serial on the firing pin too? I've ordered a new mag so I can run this a little, really looking forward to shooting my new gun.

Darrell

alanint · 06-24-2013, 06:14 AM

Military. NO "N Proof" and the Date is Manufacture, Not Property.

DavidJayUden · 06-24-2013, 07:37 AM

Alan:
Were they manufacturing military sidearms in 1921? I was under the impression that the Treaty stopped all that and they were just using WW1 Military guns or maybe conscripting commercial guns. So the 1921 date stamp, military markings puzzles me.
Education please, oh professor.
dju

alanint · 06-24-2013, 07:55 AM

You are correct? This is what happens when you post too early in the AM.

Dwight Gruber · 06-24-2013, 09:55 AM

David,

The last vestige of DWM military production dates to 1920-1921, and was halted due to the IMKK arrival and activity in 1921. The volume "Police Lugers" has full details.

-Dwight

alanint · 06-24-2013, 10:10 AM

Thanks, Dwight. I'm glad I'm not completely senile yet.

DavidJayUden · 06-24-2013, 10:35 AM

So isn't the 1921 date a bit of a rarity?
dju

Don M · 06-24-2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

So isn't the 1921 date a bit of a rarity?
dju

Not common but I wouldn't say rare.

lugersrkewl · 06-25-2013, 04:08 PM

sorry I meant that these pistols were "interspersed" with early weimar commercials

During 1920 and 1921 DWM (BKIW) produced Lugers with five digit serial numbers that were dated 1920 and 1921 that were intended for the military and police. Almost all of these bear Dove, Dove/WaA4, E/ArA4 or crown/G proofs and acceptance stamps. Those dated 1920 are reported interspersed with commercial Lugers in the 83970-85260 serial range and those dated 1921 are reported interspersed with commercial Lugers in the 85473-89572 serial range. Estimated dated Army and police production is 1500.(Weimar Lugers, page 13-14)

Vlim · 06-25-2013, 04:26 PM

In reality the police and reichswehr got about 40.000 pistols from DWM in 1920 and 1921.

From '50 Jahre DWM':

"An order from the Reichswehr and Security Police for 40.000 pistols provided work for a part of the factory until May, 1921."

Don M · 06-25-2013, 04:28 PM

The 1920- and 1921-dated DWM Lugers for the military and police were produced with 4-digit serial numbers and no, a and b suffixes as was the practice for Imperial military production. In addition, 1920-dated Lugers with n suffixes were also produced. Commercial Lugers produced in the same time period bore 5-digit serial numbers in the range 75000 - 92000 (Weimar Lugers, p. 15). While contemporaneous, the commercial and military/police production were separate.

06-23-2013, 01:11 AM	#1
d39brown New User Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1921 Luger identification Hello all, I'm very new to Lugers and had an opportunity to pick up my first 9mm the other day. After my excitement dissipated my curiosity improved. All the lower pieces and barrel are marked 219, the slide is 33. Can you help me identify what my gun is? Here are some pictures, please let me know if there is anything you can share... Darrell

06-24-2013, 01:10 AM	#7
d39brown New User Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Many thanks to everyone for the great information. Very complex info, you guys are really experts. I don't think it was ground down, here is a good picture of the top. What makes it a military instead of commercial? There is a small mark on the barrel, I didn't note what it is but it is very faint. Also I made a mistake, the 219 is on the barrel and lower, the pivot pin and other pieces are marked 19. Except for the 33 the top toggle. I don't understand 219 serial number, it does not appear to have any suffix mark anywhere? I haven't cleaned or oiled it yet, is there a serial on the firing pin too? I've ordered a new mag so I can run this a little, really looking forward to shooting my new gun. Darrell Last edited by d39brown; 06-24-2013 at 02:03 AM.

06-24-2013, 07:55 AM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	You are correct? This is what happens when you post too early in the AM. Last edited by alanint; 06-24-2013 at 10:10 AM.

06-25-2013, 04:08 PM	#15
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	clarification sorry I meant that these pistols were "interspersed" with early weimar commercials During 1920 and 1921 DWM (BKIW) produced Lugers with five digit serial numbers that were dated 1920 and 1921 that were intended for the military and police. Almost all of these bear Dove, Dove/WaA4, E/ArA4 or crown/G proofs and acceptance stamps. Those dated 1920 are reported interspersed with commercial Lugers in the 83970-85260 serial range and those dated 1921 are reported interspersed with commercial Lugers in the 85473-89572 serial range. Estimated dated Army and police production is 1500.(Weimar Lugers, page 13-14)

06-25-2013, 04:28 PM	#17
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	The 1920- and 1921-dated DWM Lugers for the military and police were produced with 4-digit serial numbers and no, a and b suffixes as was the practice for Imperial military production. In addition, 1920-dated Lugers with n suffixes were also produced. Commercial Lugers produced in the same time period bore 5-digit serial numbers in the range 75000 - 92000 (Weimar Lugers, p. 15). While contemporaneous, the commercial and military/police production were separate. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

06-23-2013, 07:39 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Your gun is a Weimar era Luger with a mismatched toggle and aftermarket sideplate. It was built from parts, so it will not be of much interest to a collector, but looks like it would make a good shooter. The plug on your magazine bottom looks either damaged or perhaps a home made replacement.

06-23-2013, 05:26 PM	#3
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,272 Thanks: 2,692 Thanked 959 Times in 705 Posts	Congrats to the addiction called Luger ownership. They are like eating one peanut!! Looks like a good shooter from what I can see. If you do chose to shoot it, first break it down for a good cleaning and inspection, then a good lube. Stick with std. velocity ammo like Winchester White box 115gr FMJ or PMC 115gr FMJ. You might also want to pick up a good aftermarket mag or two, and Mec-Gar make the best ones available......Oh, and welcome to the forum.

06-23-2013, 06:07 PM	#4
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	Nice find....an early commercial that was routed into army use. Too bad its mismatched but its still a niceun. congrats thanks for sharing

06-23-2013, 10:34 PM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It certainly bears military markings and numbering pattern. Does it appear that the top has been ground down and the 1921 being a re-stamp? That part puzzles me. dju

06-24-2013, 06:14 AM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Military. NO "N Proof" and the Date is Manufacture, Not Property.

06-24-2013, 07:37 AM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Alan: Were they manufacturing military sidearms in 1921? I was under the impression that the Treaty stopped all that and they were just using WW1 Military guns or maybe conscripting commercial guns. So the 1921 date stamp, military markings puzzles me. Education please, oh professor. dju

06-24-2013, 09:55 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	David, The last vestige of DWM military production dates to 1920-1921, and was halted due to the IMKK arrival and activity in 1921. The volume "Police Lugers" has full details. -Dwight

06-24-2013, 10:10 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Thanks, Dwight. I'm glad I'm not completely senile yet.

06-24-2013, 10:35 AM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	So isn't the 1921 date a bit of a rarity? dju

06-25-2013, 04:26 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,041 Thanks: 1,021 Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,192 Posts	In reality the police and reichswehr got about 40.000 pistols from DWM in 1920 and 1921. From '50 Jahre DWM': "An order from the Reichswehr and Security Police for 40.000 pistols provided work for a part of the factory until May, 1921."