"Gotcha Gun"??

[silverknife]

If this subject has already been beaten to death please forgive a relative newcomer to the forum. I have read many of the threads but cannot read them all.

In a previous thread there was some discussion about folks who replace incorretly numbered parts with parts which show the correct markings. Unkind opinons about those folks were expressed with which I must respectfully disagree. Not to hijack that thread, I am starting this one.

I get that there is a distinction between an "original" and a "restored" firearm whether we are talking about Lugers or 1911 Colts or carbines or Garands or any other military issued weapon. I also get that there are some of us who want only originals and those of us who are OK with restorations (that would be me). To me, a restored firearm is one which is in the same condition as it would have been when it came out of the factory, approved for issuance to the war fighter.

I respectfully disagree with characterizing a restored firearm as "gotcha" gun, or the product of a crook. The dishonesty comes not from restoring the weapon, but with representing it as "original." If the definition of "original" means that the weapon has all of the very same parts with which it was built then it strikes me that there is no way on earth that one can verify the originality of a weapon unless he was the person to whom the weapon was issued when it came from the factory, and we know that damn few soldiers of ANY rank, were ever permitted to keep their issued weapons after the wars ended.

Provenance? Maybe. IF the records trace the weapon from owner to owner with no breaks in the chain of ownership. Perhaps if the individual weapon is truly an historical piece, proof of that fact also might serve to assuage doubt about its originality. However, it seems to me that if an issued and battle tested firearm shows the correct parts, numbered and/or proofed correctly, in the correct place, with wear patterns and in condition which make sense, the most anyone can say about it is that it is representative of how the firearm would have looked when it came out of the factory minus the wear a tear of combat and perhaps the ravages of time and poor maintenance.

While I am only starting to turn my attention to Lugers, I have spent years tracking down the correct parts for various makes of carbines, Garands, and 1911 Colts. Some have stayed in my collection, some are now circulating. Of course I have no control over how subsequent owners represent the firearms, but unless subsequent owners break parts and replace them with the wrong part or a reproduction part, each new owner in the years to come will own an historical military weapon which is representative of EXACTLY how that weapon was built. My present projects, are a well used 1939 Chamber Date 42 Code P.08 and a butchered up “sportarized” .30-40 Krag. The Luger needs a hold open latch and spring and a professional exterior restoration while the Krag needs the correct barrel, front sight, full stock, and a few other parts. I don’t think that undoing the damage that was done to the Krag is dishonest. I believe that accurately restoring historical firearms is respectful of the history of the gunmakers who designed and built them, although I understand and do not disagree with the view that leaving military small arms in the same condition as they were in when they were last fired in anger is respectful of history and the soldiers who carried them into battle. I guess I just feel that "restoration" is not a dirty word and that people who restore firearms, by tracking down and replacing incorrect parts with the correct ones are not being dishonest and do not deserve to be regarded with disdain.

Just my opinion, obviously others will differ.

Regards,
Doug

[MFC]

I beleive adding/changing a mismatched part to a period correct, factory numbered part with it's original finish is OK and not frowned upon by most collectors. It's when parts are refinished and renumbered to match to boost a gun, that collectors disdain and are always on the lookout for.

[sheepherder]

I am not a collector, but I believe the line is drawn at reproduction parts. If a Luger has all Luger parts (not repros), even if mismatched, then i consider it "original". It has all original parts; maybe not the ones it left the factory with, but few if any military weapons do.

So when I see a seller advertising their Luger as "all original", I'm not concerned if it has a mismatched toggle axle. I know they mean "all Luger" parts; not soft Chinese castings.

IMHO, too much emphasis is put on matching numbers. To me, that is a Red Flag that somebody has been playing mix & match...

[alanint]

When I originally made the comment, I was only referring to parts which have been intentionally numbered to match. I also collect Carbines and Garands. Swapping parts on these guns to make them more original is not an issue for me, since the historical context of the guns allowed for this and there were no specifically numbered parts to mate together. Values in the Garand and Carbine world are also not widly affected should a part from another manufacturer or production period turn up in the gun. It is expected.
Lugers, on the other hand, lend themselves much more to fraud given the large disparity in value due to all the major parts having been numbered at the factory.
I completely support restoring originality of any number of guns, but stop short at having a part number modernly applied to boost value.
This is tantamount to finding a gas trap serialed Garand and fitting it out with fake gas trap parts to pass it off as such.

[Edward Tinker]

Doug, to me there is a big difference in german guns and american guns. Simply put, german guns are individually numbered on their parts. You can find 1911, M1 carbine, etc parts and they are period correct and if they exhibit the same wear then it is pretty hard to tell they have been swapped. And no offense, but I have known a few collectors of garands and carbines who striven for years to match up all the parts, such as for a winchester and in reality, winchester guns many times had other manufacturer parts in them.

So, your comments about restoring are kinda based on apples and oranges.

I have no idea what the hell a 'gotcha gun" was until you described one.

There is a huge difference in someone committing fraud. Someone restoring to make it nicer, someone restoring to sell as original and someone who finds a period, correct part number and swaps out an incorrect part, to me that is not fraud. But when the numbers look vastly different, because parts were made by DWM, Erfurt, Simson, Mauser and the Swiss (besides east Indies parts, DDR parts, etc), then it makes it difficult to correctly match them up. And if someone takes a blank part and places a number on it, well, thats fraud to me...


Ed

[Ron Smith]

Another point I would add is that with Garands and Carbines. It was common practice for them to be arsenal refurbished / rebuilt using new or salvaged parts, known as Arsenal rebuilds. Value ranges between an all correct Garand and a rebuild will be maybe a few hundred dollars. With few exceptions such as Doug's ["Alanint"] comment on Gas Traps.

The value of certain variations of Lugers can vary by thousands of dollars, depending on a few small markings, or skillful alterations.

As an example, there are a bunch of $3500.00-$4000.00 Navy Lugers out there that started out as $700.00-$800.00 Alphabet Commercials.

Replacing matching / period correct parts isn't a travesty with most of us. While it is frowned upon by some of the purists, "Boosting" or purposely altering a common variation to swindal someone out of many hundreds, if not thousands, is criminal fraud.

It's not unheard of that some collectors and dealers having been duped into buying high dollar altered / boosted Lugers, and upon discovery, have simply passed them on so that someone else will be the victim, rather than own-up to their being duped, admit it, and accept the loss. This is when they become, as you put it "Gotcha Guns".

Ron