1912 DWM with byf toggle link - Can it be the problem?!

[hrbla]

I recently added a DWM into my collection with matching serial of 7124 except the toggle link, a "byf". The toggle assembly did not hold/lock-up with or without magazine in the well. I stripped it down, cleaned and examed all the parts. All parts looked complete without breakage or tooled. I resembled, lubricated and test-fired. Everything worked ok except the bolt and toggle link did not hold open after last round.

There were two things felt strange enough to me:
1. Toggle took much more effort to pull comparing to my friend's 38 luger. He thought either/or/both the firing pin spring or the main spring were later/newer replacement with higher lb strengh.
2. The bolt and toggle did not slide smoothly back into the chamber if toggle knob released at half way up. My friend said it was normal but I don't buy it since his luger did not act like that.

Please advise if you have any similar experience and how did you do with (or repair) it? Do I need to source an DWM toggle link to replace the byf to make it work right (which i really doubt)? Thanks in advance for your inputs.

[Norme]

Hi Thomas, Welcome to the forum. 1912 military Lugers were not equipped with a hold open, although many were later retrofitted with one. Are you sure your gun has one? Regards, Norm

[hrbla]

Norm, thank you very much for the info and warm welcome. I think my luger might be origin enough (even with a byf toggle link) not having the hold-open feature. What does it take to have the feature?? differnet part? modify the parts? It would be great to know what strom I am sailing into.

[Norme]

Hi Thomas, This is what your 1912 should look like if it has been retrofitted. The first photo shows the hold open in place, the second shows where the pin that secures the hold open has been inserted, next to it, a small inspection stamp. Regards, Norm

[hrbla]

Thanks a million for the pictures! It is apparent that my luger has not yet pinned. From the pictures, I don't think it's a good idea to modify my luger due to the extensive machine work might involve. I will locate a DWM a toggle link to bring my luger closer to its day. Could you suggest few sources for Luger parts?

[Norme]

Hi Thomas, Luger Doc (Tom Heller), on this forum, carries parts, and you could contact him. I would guess, though, that you would have to replace the entire three piece toggle train. I doubt that this would make economic sense, since you would end up with a mismatched Luger. My advice is to enjoy your gun for what it is, a beautiful "shooter". Regards, Norm

[whcoyote]

Originally Posted by hrbla

Thanks a million for the pictures! It is apparent that my luger has not yet pinned. From the pictures, I don't think it's a good idea to modify my luger due to the extensive machine work might involve. I will locate a DWM a toggle link to bring my luger closer to its day. Could you suggest few sources for Luger parts?

Hrbla:
DO NOT MODIFY YOUR PISTOL TO ADD A HOLD-OPEN!!!! If you manage to restore it by searching and finding a proper toggle train, adding the hold-open will destroy it's value. Hold opens were added at the Erfurt Rifle Factory and a tiny acceptance stamp was affixed to denote this modification. The value of a pistol with this modification added properly at Erfurt is not affected. If you try to do it, you will turn it into a shooter.
If it were mine, I'd buy Tom's front link and keep looking for the other parts to complete the restoration. Is the breech block with extractor a mismatch also (the extractor should also be numbered)?
Bob

[mrerick]

Hi Thomas, and another welcome to the forum!

Luger pistols of all eras were hand fitted guns. That is why you see the last two digits of the serial number on all the parts of a military proofed gun.

Since you have a 1912 Mauser receiver / frame, and a WW-II era Mauser manufactured "byf" toggle, someone has swapped out parts on your gun. This was probably done by someone outside an armory because the parts were left unfitted. Armorys like those in Germany and the East German VOPO (that processed captured Lugers after WW-II) would most likely have properly installed the parts. As a result, you probably won't find rebuild marks on your gun.

Do you find import marks on your gun?

On the breech block forward of the "byf" toggle, do the numbers match the last two digits on your main serial number on the receiver left and frame front? If so the breech block / extractor / firing pin are likely original to the gun.

Since it's rather difficult to separate the middle "byf" toggle and the rear toggle, they could both be Mauser. Does the rear most toggle have numbers that match the last two digits on your main serial number?

The factory hand fit parts to make them operate smoothly on very tight tolerances.

Your gun binds up because of the mis-matched parts. This certainly interferes with proper operation, and could even be dangerous under some circumstances.

The parts need to be hand fitted by a competent gunsmith. The work is somewhat involved, and could be costly.

The addition of a magazine hold open would involve machining out the area that the part normally fits into, and is probably cost prohibitive. I personally would not do this.

You will find people on this forum that can help with the fitting if you don't have a local gunsmith familiar with Lugers.

Marc

[DavidJayUden]

Sounds like that gun needs al check-up with our LugerDoc.
dju

[Lugerdoc]

Thomas, As mentioned above, I do have an exc #24 DWM marked center toggle link available @$75 + $6 S&H. For an additional labor charge, I can install it in your current toggle assy or can do an overall diagnosis & test fire of your complete pistol, if your perfer. The only complete matching DWM toggle assys that I currently have in stock are a #58 military or a #79 commerical @$250 each, but could allow half in trade for your BYF, if in comparable condition. Tom

[Thor]

What a deal from Lugerdoc, I would certainly take him up on this! Anytime I see mismatched parts in the toggle train, I wonder if the gun has been checked for proper headspace, important!

[hrbla]

Doc, thanks for the reply but I unthoughtfully started a new thread on my 1st luger. I posted the pictures there. Base on the fellow member's input, it appeared to be a Enfurt instead of DWM. Do you have an Enfurt train with marking "24"? If so, I will be the luckiest guy in the world!! Thank you.

[Lugerdoc]

H, Sorry no #24 Erfurnt Toggle assy. TH

[Paul1525]

I have a Luger marked 1911 on the top of the barrel. I assume it's a date. The action does not hold open with a magazine in place, nor does it hold open after the last round has been fired. Please advise. Is this normal? Is there something missing from this Luger or should I just leave it alone.

[Norme]

Hi Paul, Welcome to the forum. Your gun was not manufactured with a hold open, although it may have been retrofitted with one. Before we go any further, you need to determine if this modification was carried out. I refer you to my post #4 in this thread, which will show you what to look for. Regards, Norm

[Vlim]

Paul,

Have a look at the photo earlier in the thread. It is quite possible that your pistol has no hold-open (L-shaped flat piece). These were an afterthought, many early P08s had them retro-fitted, many others hadn't.

Besides, keeping the toggle open after the last shot is a luxury, not a must

[Paul1525]

Thanks for the info. There does not appear to have any retro fit to hold toggle open. I do have what appears to be an original holster, and extra magazine. The holster also has some sort of small tool. Any idea as to value. Grips are excellent. All parts match as to serial number #1190. There are markings on inside of butt "B.1.T.S.3.193. The number 3 after the letter S is larger than the following numbers. Please advise.

[Karl]

Paul,

If I am not mistaken, the regimental marking is Bavarian 1st Regiment Train-Battalion Sanitation company 3, weapon 193. The regimental marking list I am using cites another 1911 DWM from another T.S. unit. As I understand, the lack of a hold-open retrofit is typical of Bavarian issued lugers.
KFS

[George Anderson]

Paul, I assume that your 1911 P08 is a DWM if so the serial number is most likely 1190e. I have in my possesion serial # 1051e marked "B.1.T.S.3.73.".

[Karl]

George and all,

I have always assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the Bavarian army would be equipped only with DWM lugers since Gewehrfabrik Erfurt was a royal Prussian arsenal. Am I in error about this?
KFS