British Proof marks on Navy Lugers

vdiehl · 01-20-2004, 08:41 PM

Were these applied post war or time of capture? Are these guns British reworks? Were these guns reissued to the British, if not why the proofing? Are all of the proofs in Kenyon used? Where are these proofs typically applied to the Luger? Any thing with these British Proof marked guns to avoid or watch out for? Do these marks hurt the value of the pistol?

Thanks for any and all information, just trying to learn a few things.

Vic

Navy · 01-20-2004, 11:41 PM

Hello Vic,

Brit proofs on Lugers are a frequent source of questions.

The short answer to your many questions is it depends on the gun and the proof mark.

Most by far Brit proofs on Lugers and Mausers are as a result of the late Sam Cummings of Interarms using warehousing in Great Britain to store his wares, which included many Navy Lugers. By British Law, these guns had to be proof marked..there is a whole lot of legal riga-ma-role that goes with this but basically a government shakedown to extract a few bob for each gun stored in the UK.

Having said that, there are a *very* few guns that have UK proofs that were capture pieces.

In my collection is an interesting 1916 navy that was smuggled into Ireland from German Intelligence operatives to assist in causing the crown problems during the "Troubles". It was intercepted by the Government and sat in the Castle in Dublin for many, many years.

It is now in my hands with paper trail to the Irish government. A nice piece, about 95% outside and 100% inside..like damn near unfired.

Tom A.

Lugerdoc · 01-21-2004, 10:32 AM

Give 'em hell, Tac. I have also heard from customers in Britian, that as long as they can remember, that captured German pistols to be legally registered in Britian, had to first go through the proof house. TH

Navy · 01-21-2004, 12:00 PM

esteamed and steaming Tac,

It appears I did not have sufficient clarity to my tongue in cheek comment concerning Brit proofs. I intended no offense to you, HM government or anyone else, for that matter.

I do suggest though that the INTERARMS inventories of Lugers, Mausers and P-38s, which were immense, far out numbered the individual souvenirs captured by the Tommies, Jocks, Diggers, etc who did in fact render courageous service in defeating fascism in Europe.

My apologies Sir.

Tom A.
Whose Uncle flew for the RAF during W.W.II.

vdiehl · 01-21-2004, 05:35 PM

As a collector it is always exciting to hear from knowledgeable persons that do not mind sharing their expertise with the "great unwashed". This is definitely interesting and enlighening.
Thanks.

John -Melb · 01-21-2004, 06:01 PM

I don't know if it's relevant to this discussion, but prior to it's recent loss to the Australian Government thanks to "Little Johnnie Buy-Back", my Arty (DWM 1917 5218d) had D^D markings, indicating issue to the Australian Army at some time. I have been reliably informed by an old soldier that the "Dad and Dave Industries" markings were placed on captured Lugers prior to them being issued to units operating behind Japanese lines. This was done for ease of ammo supply, the Luger took the same ammo as the Owen Gun. I understand my Arty has somehow found it's way into a Military Museum at Puckapunyal, I might go up there one day and visit the old girl.

John Sabato · 01-21-2004, 06:49 PM

A sad story... our sympathies John-Melb! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

01-20-2004, 08:41 PM	#1
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	British Proof marks on Navy Lugers Were these applied post war or time of capture? Are these guns British reworks? Were these guns reissued to the British, if not why the proofing? Are all of the proofs in Kenyon used? Where are these proofs typically applied to the Luger? Any thing with these British Proof marked guns to avoid or watch out for? Do these marks hurt the value of the pistol? Thanks for any and all information, just trying to learn a few things. Vic

01-21-2004, 10:32 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Give 'em hell, Tac. I have also heard from customers in Britian, that as long as they can remember, that captured German pistols to be legally registered in Britian, had to first go through the proof house. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-21-2004, 06:49 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	A sad story... our sympathies John-Melb! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-20-2004, 11:41 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hello Vic, Brit proofs on Lugers are a frequent source of questions. The short answer to your many questions is it depends on the gun and the proof mark. Most by far Brit proofs on Lugers and Mausers are as a result of the late Sam Cummings of Interarms using warehousing in Great Britain to store his wares, which included many Navy Lugers. By British Law, these guns had to be proof marked..there is a whole lot of legal riga-ma-role that goes with this but basically a government shakedown to extract a few bob for each gun stored in the UK. Having said that, there are a very few guns that have UK proofs that were capture pieces. In my collection is an interesting 1916 navy that was smuggled into Ireland from German Intelligence operatives to assist in causing the crown problems during the "Troubles". It was intercepted by the Government and sat in the Castle in Dublin for many, many years. It is now in my hands with paper trail to the Irish government. A nice piece, about 95% outside and 100% inside..like damn near unfired. Tom A.

01-21-2004, 12:00 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	esteamed and steaming Tac, It appears I did not have sufficient clarity to my tongue in cheek comment concerning Brit proofs. I intended no offense to you, HM government or anyone else, for that matter. I do suggest though that the INTERARMS inventories of Lugers, Mausers and P-38s, which were immense, far out numbered the individual souvenirs captured by the Tommies, Jocks, Diggers, etc who did in fact render courageous service in defeating fascism in Europe. My apologies Sir. Tom A. Whose Uncle flew for the RAF during W.W.II.

01-21-2004, 05:35 PM	#5
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	As a collector it is always exciting to hear from knowledgeable persons that do not mind sharing their expertise with the "great unwashed". This is definitely interesting and enlighening. Thanks.

01-21-2004, 06:01 PM	#6
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't know if it's relevant to this discussion, but prior to it's recent loss to the Australian Government thanks to "Little Johnnie Buy-Back", my Arty (DWM 1917 5218d) had D^D markings, indicating issue to the Australian Army at some time. I have been reliably informed by an old soldier that the "Dad and Dave Industries" markings were placed on captured Lugers prior to them being issued to units operating behind Japanese lines. This was done for ease of ammo supply, the Luger took the same ammo as the Owen Gun. I understand my Arty has somehow found it's way into a Military Museum at Puckapunyal, I might go up there one day and visit the old girl.