Question about black widow Lugers and wooden grip guns

carl1000 · 08-25-2020, 06:56 PM

From what I have read and watched videos of, isn't it true that you can take any 40-42 BYF Luger and turn it into a black widow just by changing out the grips and the magazine? So, when someone is selling a black widow Luger, is not impossible to tell for sure that it was that way from the factory?

If it is impossible, I guess I'm confused by the collectibility of them other than they look cool being all black. I know the grips and the magazines are more rare. Just curious if I correct in thinking this.

Norme · 08-25-2020, 08:06 PM

Hi Carl,
You are 100% correct.
Norm

Doubs · 08-25-2020, 08:06 PM

"Black Widow" is a term coined by the late, well known Luger collector and salesman Ralph Shattuck. It was a sales gimmick that worked too well. Officially there is no "Black Widow" but it has gained acceptance and I suppose we're stuck with it.

G.T. · 08-26-2020, 01:02 AM

Hi carl1000, It is possible to tell if some of the byf 41's were NOT issued with black grips, as the number crunchers have pretty much determined when in 1941 production, they started to turn up with some frequency... (I used to know, thought it was in the "t" suffix range?) So, before that serial range, the likely hood of finding them would be slight, and after that, probably a 50/50 chance thru all of the byf 42's? They used wood and Bakelite both right thru the end of production. And, I believe many spare sets were made because back in the 1960's and 1970's when their was a distinct aversion to plastic, they were readily available... and seldom requested... In fact, most collectors didn't like them at all.. Now it's all different.. best to you, til...lat'r...GT

George Anderson · 08-26-2020, 08:20 AM

Back in the Sixties when I was in college in Kentucky I spent a lot of time at gun shows. Whenever I acquired a Luger with bakelite grips, be they black or brown, I switched them out for Walnut grips as I thought the former looked cheap.

DonVoigt · 08-26-2020, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

Back in the Sixties when I was in college in Kentucky I spent a lot of time at gun shows. Whenever I acquired a Luger with bakelite grips, be they black or brown, I switched them out for Walnut grips as I thought the former looked cheap.

And they still do!

mrerick · 08-26-2020, 10:17 AM

I bought one of Ralph's specials from a MidWestern buyer whom Ralph sold on the mystique of the "black widow"...

It did, in fact, come with original bakelite grips... except that the left one was actually a type 1 Brown Ritzmann grip that Ralph had carefully lacquered black`.....

The black goo came off cleanly with the right chemical cleaning... I still have that grip available should anyone need it for a Krieghoff where it belongs.

The one thing that does make bakelite grips and magazine bases useful is that they are not numbered (except for the magazines of the Ku pistols). That means that you can suddenly have a "matching" Luger by replacing wood grips and aluminum based magazines with the Bakelite variety. That is why these parts are expensive.

Norme · 08-26-2020, 11:37 AM

"The one thing that does make bakelite grips and magazine bases useful is that they are not numbered (except for the magazines of the Ku pistols). That means that you can suddenly have a "matching" Luger by replacing wood grips and aluminum based magazines with the Bakelite variety. That is why these parts are expensive."

That's one of the reasons, the other, unfortunately, is the "Nazi Mystique" that the black color evokes.
Norm
________________

John Sabato · 08-26-2020, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

And they still do!

Unless you are buying them! I remember when you had trouble giving those grips away... Now you can make a down payment on a house with them.

08-25-2020, 06:56 PM	#1
carl1000 User Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 35 Times in 5 Posts	Question about black widow Lugers and wooden grip guns From what I have read and watched videos of, isn't it true that you can take any 40-42 BYF Luger and turn it into a black widow just by changing out the grips and the magazine? So, when someone is selling a black widow Luger, is not impossible to tell for sure that it was that way from the factory? If it is impossible, I guess I'm confused by the collectibility of them other than they look cool being all black. I know the grips and the magazines are more rare. Just curious if I correct in thinking this.

08-26-2020, 01:02 AM	#4
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Black Bakelite grip panels Hi carl1000, It is possible to tell if some of the byf 41's were NOT issued with black grips, as the number crunchers have pretty much determined when in 1941 production, they started to turn up with some frequency... (I used to know, thought it was in the "t" suffix range?) So, before that serial range, the likely hood of finding them would be slight, and after that, probably a 50/50 chance thru all of the byf 42's? They used wood and Bakelite both right thru the end of production. And, I believe many spare sets were made because back in the 1960's and 1970's when their was a distinct aversion to plastic, they were readily available... and seldom requested... In fact, most collectors didn't like them at all.. Now it's all different.. best to you, til...lat'r...GT

08-26-2020, 10:17 AM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I bought one of Ralph's specials from a MidWestern buyer whom Ralph sold on the mystique of the "black widow"... It did, in fact, come with original bakelite grips... except that the left one was actually a type 1 Brown Ritzmann grip that Ralph had carefully lacquered black`..... The black goo came off cleanly with the right chemical cleaning... I still have that grip available should anyone need it for a Krieghoff where it belongs. The one thing that does make bakelite grips and magazine bases useful is that they are not numbered (except for the magazines of the Ku pistols). That means that you can suddenly have a "matching" Luger by replacing wood grips and aluminum based magazines with the Bakelite variety. That is why these parts are expensive. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-25-2020, 08:06 PM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Carl, You are 100% correct. Norm

08-25-2020, 08:06 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	"Black Widow" is a term coined by the late, well known Luger collector and salesman Ralph Shattuck. It was a sales gimmick that worked too well. Officially there is no "Black Widow" but it has gained acceptance and I suppose we're stuck with it.

08-26-2020, 08:20 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Back in the Sixties when I was in college in Kentucky I spent a lot of time at gun shows. Whenever I acquired a Luger with bakelite grips, be they black or brown, I switched them out for Walnut grips as I thought the former looked cheap.

08-26-2020, 11:37 AM	#8
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	"The one thing that does make bakelite grips and magazine bases useful is that they are not numbered (except for the magazines of the Ku pistols). That means that you can suddenly have a "matching" Luger by replacing wood grips and aluminum based magazines with the Bakelite variety. That is why these parts are expensive." That's one of the reasons, the other, unfortunately, is the "Nazi Mystique" that the black color evokes. Norm ________________