DWM Double Date Luger (1916/1920) info needed

Cpl1stNJBattB · 07-19-2015, 11:53 AM

DonVoigt · 07-19-2015, 12:41 PM

Welcome and congrats on your luger.

We have a very good picture host here, some of us won't go outside to see pictures-
too many pop ups, etc, and bad things.

I'd like to see it, but I'm one of the dinosaurs that won't go to a third party picture host.

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2015, 12:46 PM

Welcome to the forum. Value can range, probably what you paid for it, unless you got it as a present or good deal - no offense but I don't generally click on each picture to go look.

If you state DWM double date, it started as WW1 and then likely received the 1920 gov't marking (see FAQ in New Collectors area).

The two matching mags have major issues;

1. Aluminum bases
2. One is army marked (+ which means spare)
3. One is Police (3)
4. Been ground and new numbers put on them

I did not see a picture of the top?

The unit markings I'd have to look up

Are you a Sons of Union re-enactor? I observe and although I live in Penn I am a founding member of the Washington States Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War

Ed

Sergio Natali · 07-19-2015, 12:52 PM

Sean

Welcome to this Forum of Luger enthusiasts.

In a few words a so called "double dated Luger" in most cases means that the gun received the 1920 'date' as some sort of "Government acceptance marking", (Reichswehr 1920 property stamp) to show it belonged to the German Army State, the stamp. Quoting J. Gortz: " On 7 August 1920 a new aw on disarming of the people was published effective 15 Sept 1929 to 1 March 1921 This Law required all Germans to hand in to the Government all military arms stolen from the government in he years immediately following WWI

In some cases the 1920 Reichswehr stamp was aplied to guns manufactured long after 1921 so there are so many variables of double dates and one variable will make one model worth less, and another worth more than another.

These guns are not rare, still they are some sort of silent witnesses of a troubled era.

Sergio

Dwight Gruber · 07-19-2015, 01:12 PM

Not an "acceptance marking", a mark expressly certifying government ownership.

--Dwight

Cpl1stNJBattB · 07-19-2015, 01:36 PM

What is the largest size photo that can be uploaded?
Nevermind they're in my album section.

Cpl1stNJBattB · 07-19-2015, 02:29 PM

Thanks to all for welcoming me.
Hi Ed,
Top of Pistol or Magazines?
Should the magazines have wood bases?
I paid $625 for it.
No, I don't belong to the SUV. I do belong to the N-SSA (http://www.n-ssa.org/)

Cpl1stNJBattB · 07-19-2015, 03:02 PM

I've uploaded the pictures to my album section
http://forum.lugerforum.com/album.php?u=12943

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2015, 03:14 PM

Excellent price no matter what, will go look at your album.

Ed

Sergio Natali · 07-20-2015, 05:18 AM

Sean

More about the "1920 Reichswehr Property Stamp" the following is taken from a poster by the name of 'SimsonSuhl', concerning the "1920" date, I think it's quite an interesting page of history:

quote
"The 1920 Property Mark"

At the end of World War I, after an orderly retreat to the Armistice line, the German Army largely fell apart, many soldiers heading home, often taking their small arms with them. Equipment of all sorts was “lost” on this retreat, artillery and mortars to small arms. The ensuing chaos in Germany, between opposing factions (right and left), often created impossible conditions in Germany that the government was barely able to contain.

Much of this came to a head at the Spa Conference, during July 1920 in Belgium. The German delegation was berated for allowing such chaos to continue, and during the “interrogation” General Seeckt (head of the Reichswehr) matter of factly stated the small arms situation:

The German Army at the time of the Armistice had 6,000,000 rifles, during the retreat she lost 1,500,000 rifles and had delivered over to the Entente 1,690,000. He also stated that the German Army held 250,000 rifles, the Police 117,000, and the Militia 600,000. Lloyd George reportedly flew into a rage over this, but Seeckt ignored his outburst and continued his report. Simply stating the Army’s position was to abide by the terms as soon as they could collect the missing and excess arms (rifles were the least of the worries, missing MG’s and artillery were much more of a concern). He suggested this would take up to a year.

While these figures remained in dispute (Lloyd George suspected more were unaccounted for), Lloyd George essentially agreed to the plans the German government outlined, - this would become the “The Disarming of the People Act”, which goal was simply to entice as many Germans as possible into surrendering the illegal military arms in their hands, and curtailing the ongoing violence. Rewards and amnesty were the first offerings, and eventually just amnesty from criminal prosecution.

Before the German government could implement this law and buy back program, they had to identify weapons in government hands, from those illegally held, so as to not encourage further thefts for the offered rewards. They decided to mark all weapons currently in government hands with a “1920” marking starting in August 1920. This was done by the individual units, depots, organizations, and that is why the markings vary as to application and style.

The program started on September 15, 1920, and lasted until November 1, 1920, and was later extended to February 1921. The law required all German civilians to surrender all “military” weapons in their possession.

The rewards offered ranged from a high of $2,350 US dollars (paid in RM) for artillery pieces, to $23.50 for each rifle. The terms of the rewards demanded quick surrender, full rewards only paid through October 10th, half rewards followed until October 20th, and after that the surrender only guaranteed amnesty from prosecution. The results of the law were disappointing, some large seizures were made due to informants selling out others, and some surprising hauls were made, but not surprisingly, most of the illegal arms were held by organizations and groups who had plans for them, and were not enticed to letting them go for mere petty change and amnesty.

The German government did surrender massive amount of arms, as Seeckt promised. By January 13, 1921 alone, almost 30,000 artillery pieces and barrels, 10,000 mortars, 70,000 MG’s and nearly 3 million rifles had been surrendered or destroyed under supervision. By 1922 most of the armament demands (arms in excess of Versailles and subsequent agreements) were met and in general Germany was essentially disarmed of all offensive capability.
unquote

Best regards.

Sergio

Cpl1stNJBattB · 07-20-2015, 07:24 AM

Hi Sergio,
Thank you for that interesting and enlightening read.
Question about your avatar, the shoulder stock is that military or civilian?
Have a great day, Sean

Sergio Natali · 07-20-2015, 08:31 AM

Sean

That 1900 Luger is one of the earliest produced by DWM after the so called "test lugers" (# 7234) and comes with an original Ideal Company combination metal shoulder stock/leather holster. These stocks were patented in 1901 under Ross M. G. Phillips, L.A. CA and manufactured under the "Ideal Holster Co" in Los Angeles CA.
Apparently they were manufactured for only a very short time as the DWM factory eventually added a metal stock lug to the rear frame of every Luger pistol and developed their own walnut board stock.

Best regards

Sergio

Cpl1stNJBattB · 07-22-2015, 08:20 AM

What type mag(s) should my DWM have?
Nickel or Blue?
Wood or Aluminum?
Serial # or none ?
Any other markings?

Geo99 · 07-24-2015, 02:26 AM

1916 / 1920 Army Luger should have nickel plated DWM "half-moon" mags with wood bottoms, stamped with matching serial number AND suffix (good luck finding them). As far as any other markings, a "+" is OK, but should have nothing else.

- Geo

Cpl1stNJBattB · 07-24-2015, 10:12 AM

Hi George,
Thank you for your time in answering my question. Sean

07-19-2015, 11:53 AM	#1
Cpl1stNJBattB User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 14 Thanks: 10 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	DWM Double Date Luger (1916/1920) info needed Hi All Great Forum. Lots of interesting info. I'm glad I found it. This Luger has all matching numbers (including the wood grips) with two matching magazines. Any info (Manufacturing, markings, etc.) and estimate of value would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sean Please follow the link to view. https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...26889/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...63671/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...26345/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...75428/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...77753/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...40800/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...13110/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...09919/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...20549/sizes/h/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...663050/sizes/l https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...077149/sizes/l https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...671853/sizes/l https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...942829/sizes/l https://www.flickr.com/photos/769787...503430/sizes/l

07-19-2015, 12:46 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Welcome to the forum. Value can range, probably what you paid for it, unless you got it as a present or good deal - no offense but I don't generally click on each picture to go look. If you state DWM double date, it started as WW1 and then likely received the 1920 gov't marking (see FAQ in New Collectors area). The two matching mags have major issues; 1. Aluminum bases 2. One is army marked (+ which means spare) 3. One is Police (3) 4. Been ground and new numbers put on them I did not see a picture of the top? The unit markings I'd have to look up Are you a Sons of Union re-enactor? I observe and although I live in Penn I am a founding member of the Washington States Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-19-2015, 12:52 PM	#4
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Sean Welcome to this Forum of Luger enthusiasts. In a few words a so called "double dated Luger" in most cases means that the gun received the 1920 'date' as some sort of "Government acceptance marking", (Reichswehr 1920 property stamp) to show it belonged to the German Army State, the stamp. Quoting J. Gortz: " On 7 August 1920 a new aw on disarming of the people was published effective 15 Sept 1929 to 1 March 1921 This Law required all Germans to hand in to the Government all military arms stolen from the government in he years immediately following WWI In some cases the 1920 Reichswehr stamp was aplied to guns manufactured long after 1921 so there are so many variables of double dates and one variable will make one model worth less, and another worth more than another. These guns are not rare, still they are some sort of silent witnesses of a troubled era. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

07-19-2015, 01:36 PM	#6
Cpl1stNJBattB User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 14 Thanks: 10 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	What is the largest size photo that can be uploaded? Nevermind they're in my album section. Last edited by Cpl1stNJBattB; 07-19-2015 at 03:06 PM.

07-19-2015, 02:29 PM	#7
Cpl1stNJBattB User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 14 Thanks: 10 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks to all for welcoming me. Hi Ed, Top of Pistol or Magazines? Should the magazines have wood bases? I paid $625 for it. No, I don't belong to the SUV. I do belong to the N-SSA (http://www.n-ssa.org/) Last edited by Cpl1stNJBattB; 07-19-2015 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Picture wouldn't load

07-19-2015, 12:41 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Welcome and congrats on your luger. We have a very good picture host here, some of us won't go outside to see pictures- too many pop ups, etc, and bad things. I'd like to see it, but I'm one of the dinosaurs that won't go to a third party picture host.

07-19-2015, 01:12 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Not an "acceptance marking", a mark expressly certifying government ownership. --Dwight

07-19-2015, 03:02 PM	#8
Cpl1stNJBattB User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 14 Thanks: 10 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I've uploaded the pictures to my album section http://forum.lugerforum.com/album.php?u=12943

07-19-2015, 03:14 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Excellent price no matter what, will go look at your album. Ed

07-20-2015, 05:18 AM	#10
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Sean More about the "1920 Reichswehr Property Stamp" the following is taken from a poster by the name of 'SimsonSuhl', concerning the "1920" date, I think it's quite an interesting page of history: quote "The 1920 Property Mark" At the end of World War I, after an orderly retreat to the Armistice line, the German Army largely fell apart, many soldiers heading home, often taking their small arms with them. Equipment of all sorts was “lost” on this retreat, artillery and mortars to small arms. The ensuing chaos in Germany, between opposing factions (right and left), often created impossible conditions in Germany that the government was barely able to contain. Much of this came to a head at the Spa Conference, during July 1920 in Belgium. The German delegation was berated for allowing such chaos to continue, and during the “interrogation” General Seeckt (head of the Reichswehr) matter of factly stated the small arms situation: The German Army at the time of the Armistice had 6,000,000 rifles, during the retreat she lost 1,500,000 rifles and had delivered over to the Entente 1,690,000. He also stated that the German Army held 250,000 rifles, the Police 117,000, and the Militia 600,000. Lloyd George reportedly flew into a rage over this, but Seeckt ignored his outburst and continued his report. Simply stating the Army’s position was to abide by the terms as soon as they could collect the missing and excess arms (rifles were the least of the worries, missing MG’s and artillery were much more of a concern). He suggested this would take up to a year. While these figures remained in dispute (Lloyd George suspected more were unaccounted for), Lloyd George essentially agreed to the plans the German government outlined, - this would become the “The Disarming of the People Act”, which goal was simply to entice as many Germans as possible into surrendering the illegal military arms in their hands, and curtailing the ongoing violence. Rewards and amnesty were the first offerings, and eventually just amnesty from criminal prosecution. Before the German government could implement this law and buy back program, they had to identify weapons in government hands, from those illegally held, so as to not encourage further thefts for the offered rewards. They decided to mark all weapons currently in government hands with a “1920” marking starting in August 1920. This was done by the individual units, depots, organizations, and that is why the markings vary as to application and style. The program started on September 15, 1920, and lasted until November 1, 1920, and was later extended to February 1921. The law required all German civilians to surrender all “military” weapons in their possession. The rewards offered ranged from a high of $2,350 US dollars (paid in RM) for artillery pieces, to $23.50 for each rifle. The terms of the rewards demanded quick surrender, full rewards only paid through October 10th, half rewards followed until October 20th, and after that the surrender only guaranteed amnesty from prosecution. The results of the law were disappointing, some large seizures were made due to informants selling out others, and some surprising hauls were made, but not surprisingly, most of the illegal arms were held by organizations and groups who had plans for them, and were not enticed to letting them go for mere petty change and amnesty. The German government did surrender massive amount of arms, as Seeckt promised. By January 13, 1921 alone, almost 30,000 artillery pieces and barrels, 10,000 mortars, 70,000 MG’s and nearly 3 million rifles had been surrendered or destroyed under supervision. By 1922 most of the armament demands (arms in excess of Versailles and subsequent agreements) were met and in general Germany was essentially disarmed of all offensive capability. unquote Best regards. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

07-20-2015, 07:24 AM	#11
Cpl1stNJBattB User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 14 Thanks: 10 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Sergio, Thank you for that interesting and enlightening read. Question about your avatar, the shoulder stock is that military or civilian? Have a great day, Sean

07-20-2015, 08:31 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Sean That 1900 Luger is one of the earliest produced by DWM after the so called "test lugers" (# 7234) and comes with an original Ideal Company combination metal shoulder stock/leather holster. These stocks were patented in 1901 under Ross M. G. Phillips, L.A. CA and manufactured under the "Ideal Holster Co" in Los Angeles CA. Apparently they were manufactured for only a very short time as the DWM factory eventually added a metal stock lug to the rear frame of every Luger pistol and developed their own walnut board stock. Best regards Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

07-22-2015, 08:20 AM	#13
Cpl1stNJBattB User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 14 Thanks: 10 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	What type mag(s) should my DWM have? Nickel or Blue? Wood or Aluminum? Serial # or none ? Any other markings? __________________

07-24-2015, 02:26 AM	#14
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	1916 / 1920 Army Luger should have nickel plated DWM "half-moon" mags with wood bottoms, stamped with matching serial number AND suffix (good luck finding them). As far as any other markings, a "+" is OK, but should have nothing else. - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

07-24-2015, 10:12 AM	#15
Cpl1stNJBattB User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 14 Thanks: 10 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Hi George, Thank you for your time in answering my question. Sean __________________