Luger Kriegsmarine

wterrell · 06-19-2002, 05:35 PM

Listed as: Holster. Luger Kriegsmarine. 1938 Vodel

Is this holster worth $450?

I found it at:

http://www.antiquegunroom.com/agr/cl...l.php?id=26272

Aaron · 06-19-2002, 10:28 PM

The last one I sold went for $400. but this one appears to be in somewhat better condition.

Hugh · 06-20-2002, 05:51 PM

Bought this one last week on ebay for $182, course it ain't as purty as that one!

wterrell · 06-20-2002, 07:00 PM

Hugh,
Tell us more about your holster and please include a few more pics of the details, back, stampings, etc. That is an interesting piece.

Hugh · 06-20-2002, 07:53 PM

Wes,

The pic and this description is from the auction and is all the info I have at present, will post more when I recieve it.

"1936 Luger Holster Navy Marked Eagle over M. Condition is Very Good with cracking on the body. Very pliable leather and solid straps and flap hinge. "KernKisger & Co. Berlin"

I bought it to go with the 1936 S/42 Navy that I got from Ralph during the last Lugerforum gathering. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

wterrell · 06-20-2002, 11:33 PM

Looking forward to seeing it after you receive it!

lugerholsterrepair · 06-21-2002, 06:58 PM

Wes, I want to say I am not at all comfortable with the quality and age of the Eagle over M stamping on this holster. If you compare it with the regular Waffenampt above you can see the one that appears to be original shows wear and is quite fine and detailed. The Marine stamp has no wear , no dirt to speak or, is not finely detailed and the swastica in the circle looks nothing like an original stamping. This is purely my opinion but I suspect this stamping to be nefarious. My personal opinion and I could be wrong but I get quite a few Navy holsters here in my shop and this stamping looks like nothing I have observed over the years. Jerry Burney

lugerholsterrepair · 06-21-2002, 07:19 PM

Wes, I have found two examples of this stamp in Costanzo's World of Lugers. 1. Page 107 # 141

1934 mid series Kreigsmarine series proof. 1934-1943. If you compare this proof with the one found on the holster for sale you emmediately see a problem.

Another thing I forgot to mention previously is the box around the M on the holster for sale. You can barely see it but it is there and it indicates a different type of stamp construction than original stamps. Also the line above the Eagles head is indicative of the cast box construction and is intirely wrong. The M on the bottom shound be quite square and boxy but it has sharp points and does not look at all correct. The same as the swastica. I think this is a clumsy attempt at fraud , if not by the seller, he has been duped.

The other example is on page 135, #277. It is a late proof, 1943-1945.

Good luck! Jerry Burney

[img]confused.gif[/img]

wterrell · 06-21-2002, 07:38 PM

Jerry,
Thank you for the trouble that you went to to help me on this holster. [img]smile.gif[/img]
I follow your reasoning on this item.
This is an area in which I am attempting to gain knowledge and do not yet have the "eye" that you gentlemen have developed.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-21-2002, 08:30 PM

Wes, I got my eye from looking at the many holsters that come thru my repair shop and using comparisons . Just look at everything you come accross and you get an idea of what is authentic.Old is old and new is pretty obvious. Books are a great help. I have a stack four feet high and just bought another. Dutch Lugers and their history. Quite an investment but you got to pay if you want to play! Jerry Burney

wterrell · 06-21-2002, 09:13 PM

Jerry,
I know what you mean about being a bibliophile to accumulate knowledge.

Whenever I was young, an interest of mine was Pennsylvania longrifles. My collection of books relative to this is extensive.

A lifelong passion of mine was training and field trialing quail dogs. If you ever visit my web page (http://www.wterrell.com), you will get an idea of my dedication to studying this subject.

Lugers are now taking a more prominent position in my pasttime, so I shall surely purchase more bookcases to contain my references.

At some point, I hope to acquire a small portion of what you have learned. Wish me luck.

Hugh · 06-26-2002, 11:37 AM

Here is the "navy" holster that I got on ebay. I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the eagle M stamp on this holster, as it looks much newer than the other stamps, & I cannot find it in Costanzo's book.

The holster is dark brown, stamped KernKl&ger&Cie, 1936, Berlin; DE WaA63, with a Nazi eagle over M. The maker is a Berlin maker that made holsters for the Third Reich, so I believe the maker and Wa stamps to be legit.

I would appreciate any opinions as to the authenticity of this holster.

One of the belt loops has been restiched, but it looks like an old repair

lugerholsterrepair · 06-26-2002, 04:15 PM

Hugh, I think this is a very questionable stamp. As you can see it is not in harmony with the other stamps present on the holster. I also question the accuracy of the swastica. It seems to have sharp points and is very much like the stamping Wes brought to our attention at the beginning of this thread. I just cannot believe this stamp was applied when this holster was built. It looks as tho it was stamped yesterday with an amaturish bogus stamp. Just my opinion . Jerry Burney

Navy · 06-27-2002, 11:06 AM

The eagle M is FAR, FAR too crisp in comparison with the other stamps to be real. I vote this as bogus.

Tom A <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Aaron · 06-27-2002, 02:23 PM

Wouldn't the E/M have been stamped at a later date than the waffenampt? Perhaps the Kriegsmarine die used was in better condition and was applied with more expertise in an unhurried manner, and therefore appears much more distinct.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-27-2002, 04:16 PM

Aaron, Let's say your theory has merit and the Eagle M is stamped later. Say a year later. This still leaves it to age with the other for 60 years or so. This does not look aged at all to me. Besides I have observed many German stamps and they are useually crisp and distinct. Very accurate. One other thing, the leather stamps do not wear like the stamps used on pistols. Jerry Burney

tracyp · 06-27-2002, 05:58 PM

Here's another one up for sale on ebay. What do you think?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2116706858

lugerholsterrepair · 06-28-2002, 11:25 AM

Tracyp, From what I can see this stamp looks normal. Derek Seltzer is bidding on it and is one of the foremost authorities on German Navy holsters that I know of other than Tom Armstrong. They have been a great help to me over the years on this subject. I think this one looks like it is supposed to. Jerry Burney

tracyp · 06-28-2002, 01:38 PM

Thanks, Jerry.

Tracy (tracyp)

Navy · 06-28-2002, 04:23 PM

TracyP,

The holster with Mag is right as rain.

Hope this helps.

Tom Armstrong <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

06-19-2002, 05:35 PM	#1
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Luger Kriegsmarine Listed as: Holster. Luger Kriegsmarine. 1938 Vodel Is this holster worth $450? I found it at: http://www.antiquegunroom.com/agr/cl...l.php?id=26272 __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-20-2002, 05:51 PM	#3
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Bought this one last week on ebay for $182, course it ain't as purty as that one! __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-20-2002, 07:00 PM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hugh, Tell us more about your holster and please include a few more pics of the details, back, stampings, etc. That is an interesting piece. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-20-2002, 07:53 PM	#5
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Wes, The pic and this description is from the auction and is all the info I have at present, will post more when I recieve it. "1936 Luger Holster Navy Marked Eagle over M. Condition is Very Good with cracking on the body. Very pliable leather and solid straps and flap hinge. "KernKisger & Co. Berlin" I bought it to go with the 1936 S/42 Navy that I got from Ralph during the last Lugerforum gathering. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-20-2002, 11:33 PM	#6
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Looking forward to seeing it after you receive it! __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-19-2002, 10:28 PM	#2
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	The last one I sold went for $400. but this one appears to be in somewhat better condition.

06-21-2002, 06:58 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Wes, I want to say I am not at all comfortable with the quality and age of the Eagle over M stamping on this holster. If you compare it with the regular Waffenampt above you can see the one that appears to be original shows wear and is quite fine and detailed. The Marine stamp has no wear , no dirt to speak or, is not finely detailed and the swastica in the circle looks nothing like an original stamping. This is purely my opinion but I suspect this stamping to be nefarious. My personal opinion and I could be wrong but I get quite a few Navy holsters here in my shop and this stamping looks like nothing I have observed over the years. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-21-2002, 07:19 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Wes, I have found two examples of this stamp in Costanzo's World of Lugers. 1. Page 107 # 141 1934 mid series Kreigsmarine series proof. 1934-1943. If you compare this proof with the one found on the holster for sale you emmediately see a problem. Another thing I forgot to mention previously is the box around the M on the holster for sale. You can barely see it but it is there and it indicates a different type of stamp construction than original stamps. Also the line above the Eagles head is indicative of the cast box construction and is intirely wrong. The M on the bottom shound be quite square and boxy but it has sharp points and does not look at all correct. The same as the swastica. I think this is a clumsy attempt at fraud , if not by the seller, he has been duped. The other example is on page 135, #277. It is a late proof, 1943-1945. Good luck! Jerry Burney [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-21-2002, 07:38 PM	#9
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jerry, Thank you for the trouble that you went to to help me on this holster. [img]smile.gif[/img] I follow your reasoning on this item. This is an area in which I am attempting to gain knowledge and do not yet have the "eye" that you gentlemen have developed. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-21-2002, 08:30 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Wes, I got my eye from looking at the many holsters that come thru my repair shop and using comparisons . Just look at everything you come accross and you get an idea of what is authentic.Old is old and new is pretty obvious. Books are a great help. I have a stack four feet high and just bought another. Dutch Lugers and their history. Quite an investment but you got to pay if you want to play! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-21-2002, 09:13 PM	#11
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jerry, I know what you mean about being a bibliophile to accumulate knowledge. Whenever I was young, an interest of mine was Pennsylvania longrifles. My collection of books relative to this is extensive. A lifelong passion of mine was training and field trialing quail dogs. If you ever visit my web page (http://www.wterrell.com), you will get an idea of my dedication to studying this subject. Lugers are now taking a more prominent position in my pasttime, so I shall surely purchase more bookcases to contain my references. At some point, I hope to acquire a small portion of what you have learned. Wish me luck. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-26-2002, 11:37 AM	#12
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Here is the "navy" holster that I got on ebay. I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the eagle M stamp on this holster, as it looks much newer than the other stamps, & I cannot find it in Costanzo's book. The holster is dark brown, stamped KernKl&ger&Cie, 1936, Berlin; DE WaA63, with a Nazi eagle over M. The maker is a Berlin maker that made holsters for the Third Reich, so I believe the maker and Wa stamps to be legit. I would appreciate any opinions as to the authenticity of this holster. One of the belt loops has been restiched, but it looks like an old repair __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-26-2002, 04:15 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Hugh, I think this is a very questionable stamp. As you can see it is not in harmony with the other stamps present on the holster. I also question the accuracy of the swastica. It seems to have sharp points and is very much like the stamping Wes brought to our attention at the beginning of this thread. I just cannot believe this stamp was applied when this holster was built. It looks as tho it was stamped yesterday with an amaturish bogus stamp. Just my opinion . Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-27-2002, 11:06 AM	#14
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The eagle M is FAR, FAR too crisp in comparison with the other stamps to be real. I vote this as bogus. Tom A <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

06-27-2002, 02:23 PM	#15
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Wouldn't the E/M have been stamped at a later date than the waffenampt? Perhaps the Kriegsmarine die used was in better condition and was applied with more expertise in an unhurried manner, and therefore appears much more distinct.

06-27-2002, 04:16 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Aaron, Let's say your theory has merit and the Eagle M is stamped later. Say a year later. This still leaves it to age with the other for 60 years or so. This does not look aged at all to me. Besides I have observed many German stamps and they are useually crisp and distinct. Very accurate. One other thing, the leather stamps do not wear like the stamps used on pistols. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-27-2002, 05:58 PM	#17
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Here's another one up for sale on ebay. What do you think? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2116706858

06-28-2002, 11:25 AM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Tracyp, From what I can see this stamp looks normal. Derek Seltzer is bidding on it and is one of the foremost authorities on German Navy holsters that I know of other than Tom Armstrong. They have been a great help to me over the years on this subject. I think this one looks like it is supposed to. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-28-2002, 01:38 PM	#19
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks, Jerry. Tracy (tracyp)

06-28-2002, 04:23 PM	#20
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	TracyP, The holster with Mag is right as rain. Hope this helps. Tom Armstrong <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />